Perfection is Hated

 What does it really mean to be a perfectionist? Episode 6 of “I Hate Talking” explores the concept of being a perfectionist, moving beyond their initial show introduction into more open-ended topics. They discuss the common perception of a perfectionist as someone who demands flawlessness and is self-critical, often with negative or positive connotations, but the dictionary simply defines a perfectionist as someone who refuses to accept any standard short of perfection.

The hosts share a personal story where one took a therapist’s survey to assess perfectionist traits versus excellence traits. The therapist challenged the guest’s denial of being a perfectionist by pointing out behaviors like always having pen and paper ready, and a fear of failure that leads to not trying at all. 

They discuss the 20-word associative survey which lists traits associated with perfectionism (e.g., idealist, fear of failure, inflexible, self-condemning) and contrasts them with traits of excellence (e.g., realistic, self-accepting, flexible, focusing on process).

Listeners are invited to take the survey themselves, scoring how many traits they identify with on each side, and then subtracting their excellence score from their perfection score to see where they fall on the spectrum. 

The hosts reflect that perfectionism is complex and not just about striving for perfection at all costs but can include avoiding effort due to fear of not achieving perfection.

The episode emphasizes that this exploration is less about labeling oneself strictly as a perfectionist or not, and more about gaining insight into personal motivations and perceptions, distinguishing between perfectionism and excellence. They conclude that understanding these nuances helps in self-awareness and growth, aligning with the show’s goal of fostering understanding through conversation.

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Any views expressed on this podcast are those solely of the hosts and is for entertainment purposes only. None of the content is medical advice or financial advice.

Special thanks to Tim Wright aka CoLD SToRAGE for his permission to use the song Operatique.

Transcript

I Hate Talking: 0:29

Welcome to episode 6 of I Hate Talking. We are now. Into Some random topics. Because we have completed our introduction to our show with the who, what, where. When and why. And are now into Our topics that we are going to delve into that perhaps have less of an outline. But as I was reciting those particular words, I think I may have said them out of order, which would have been imperfect. So we're gonna be talking about the perfectionist in today's episode. So, what do you think of when you hear the word perfectionist? I would think of someone who wants everything perfect, that maybe can't go to sleep unless the house looks the way they want, unless they've done everything in their job. Absolutely perfect. And um no mistakes, no errors. So it's interesting that when people hear the word perfectionist, I think they have a particular The idea that comes to their mind or a potential connotation maybe of being negative, maybe of being positive, but when we look at just the definition of perfectionist in the dictionary, it does not really carry any of those connotations. It simply says a person who refuses to accept any standard short of perfection. And I guess we can perhaps consider that our word of the episode. perfectionist and we can consider that our dictionary definition, but we are going to delve into some of the nuances and connotations of that particular word. Awesome, that's perfect. Indeed it is. So we've recently taken a survey that perhaps indicates that you are more of a perfectionist than me, which I think would quite surprise both ourselves and people that know us personally. Yes, definitely. So, the backstory to this, if we're sharing that, is I recently started therapy just for myself to become the most healthy I can be as a wife, mom, person. And it was telehealth. In my initial consultation a couple of weeks ago, the therapist asked me, as I was describing my life, he said, are you a perfectionist? I instantly said, no. No, no, no. My husband is, I'm definitely not. And he made a list. He told me, or first he asked me, do you have paper and pen in front of you? And I said, yes. He said, of course you do, because you're a perfectionist. And he went on, and I'll share in a little bit. He made a list of the differences and what you'd call a perfectionist. Since then, we've talked to other people. And nobody would call me a perfectionist necessarily that we know, or high perfectionist, where everyone would instantly consider you one, except for this list, I'm 9 out of 10, where you were much less than that. So for those listening at home, uh, we may edit this so that there's not so much of a delay, but for those listening, we just counted up the list and I'm pretty sure that may be indicative of being a perfectionist as well. I love that. Yes. When we first started recording these, I wouldn't pause because I felt like we had to fill the moments and minutes because no one wants dead air. Now that I know we can edit, and we can. Pause and remove these moments. I took a second to count how many of them I relate to versus don't. And we are gonna go through this survey for everyone at home as well, so you can play along. But before we do that, both Steph and myself are going to take the survey once again and see what our results are. So you have the list in front of you, you may begin and I will respond to both the perfection side versus the excellent side. So I'm giving both at the same time or all perfection at one time? So I believe the survey as it was given to you was the perfection all on one side and then the excellent. Is that correct? Yes. So what he did for me was he said, write these words down. And mark off how many you relate to. Write two sides on what the left hand column. Write these words and tell me how many you relate to. And then after that, he said on the right-hand column, write these down and tell me how many you relate to. And for those of you that are multitasking, perhaps driving or mowing the lawn or doing laundry, we'll make this much more simple for you to play along in just a moment so that you don't have to write down anything. But before we do that, we are going to take this survey ourselves once again. OK. I idealist. Yes. Yes. Says, quote, I must. Yes. Yes. Fis failure. Yes, yes. Makes demands. Yes. Yes. Focuses on the product. No. Yes. Is enslaving. Yes. Yes. Self-condemning. Yes. Yes. Focuses on the fantasy. No. Yes. Inflexible. Yes. No. Addicted to being right. Yes. Yes. So that was his list for the left column for being a perfectionist. And then he wanted me to focus on instead of perfection, being excellent. And this was his. List for being excellent. Are you realistic? Yes. No, Say I want. No. No. Do you desire success? Yes. Yes. Do you make requests? No. No. Do you focus on the process? Yes. No. Is it free? No. No. Are you self accepting? No. No. Do you focus on reality? Yes. No. Language and story connections. No. Yes. Inflexible instead of rigid. No. Medium. So, we are going to give this survey to you, the listener. So here are the instructions. When we read the perfection side of the list. You want to record how many words that you associate yourself with. So at the end, you should have a total number. It could be 0 if you do not associate with any of the words, or it could be a much higher number if you associate with a higher number of words. Then we will read the excellent side of the list. And you again will confirm and record the number of words that you associate yourself with. So at the end of this process, you will have two separate numbers. One is your perfection number and the second is your excellent number. And once you have recorded those two numbers, we will do some math and arrive at the conclusion of how you correlate to perfection or excellence according to this study. I love that, do some math. Alright, so we will begin with the perfection side once again. So going down the list quickly, we have, are you an idealist? Do you say I must. Do you fear failure? Can you make demands? Do you focus on the product? Is life enslaving? Are you self-condemning? Do you focus on the fantasy? Are you inflexible? Are you addicted to being right? All right, so after you have heard that list of words on the perfection side, You could have arrived at a number anywhere between 0 and 10 inclusive, 0 being the fact that you did not associate with any of those words and 10 being the fact that you associated with every single word on the list. So remember this number. And we will return to it shortly. Now, on to the excellent side of the list. OK, for excellence, are you a realistic? Do you say I want. Do you desire success? Do you make requests? Focus on the process. Is life freeing. Are you self accepting? Do you focus on reality? Do you focus on language and story connections? Are you flexible instead of rigid? So based on that list, you also will arrive at a number from 0 to 10 inclusive and based on that number, we are going to take the perfection number and subtract the excellent number. So there are many different variables that could arrive here, but if you selected everything on the perfection side, you would have a 10. And if by chance you selected none of the excellent side, you would have 0. So 10 minus 0 is 10, or perhaps you have 0 in the first column and all 10 in the second list with the excellent list, and that would be -10 and then anywhere in between is going to be a more well balanced outlook on perfectionism versus excellence. And you may have a perfect balanced score of 0 or maybe a positive number, which is more on the perfection side or a negative number more on the excellent side. Yes. So this is definitely from um my therapist, that's a local therapist. He does a, I am thankful for him. Um, I would never have thought of myself as a perfectionist, but when I look back at my life as a whole, and my grades and what I've accomplished in school or my career, I definitely feel like It could be a perfectionist. What he said when I pushed back on this. I argued, if I can't do something right, it doesn't bother me. I don't even try. And what do you think he said to that? I think he may have either turned that back to a question, as most therapists do, or perhaps Completely disagreed with you to see how you would react. Yeah, he said, I don't try because I can't even get it perfect, so why even try? So there you have it, and I think this harkens back to some of the discussion that we had in some earlier episodes with perception versus belief where I would consider myself more of a perfectionist in terms of how others perceive me that I must do the right things so that I look good to others, whereas this survey and how you respond to it. That it deals more with what you believe about yourself and how you act within your own psyche. Yeah, definitely. I think after he pushed back, and as you and I have discussed this, in a way, I feel like you're taking this therapy on secondhand free of charge, because I share every, write down everything and share it with you. But I really am the one paying for it when it comes down to it. It's true, you are. Thank you for your hard work at your job. Homeschooling, stay at home mom doesn't pay well. But As, um, I'm sharing this with you and discussing it with him and all that, I think a big thing um that I would have pushed back on when I say, oh, I'm, my house is a mess, like, the kitchen is never perfect. And it's just how it is. And he's pushing back saying, you're saying that because you know it can't be perfect, so you're not even trying. That in itself is a perfectionist stance, you're not going to try because you can never reach perfection. And even in this podcast, or everything in my life, I'm seeing that I have a bar in my head. Where my house is not perfectly clean. And I'd say, see, obviously I'm not a perfectionist. But I feel like my why is different. It's not. An acceptance of it's OK, cause my kids are having fun and playing. It's an acceptance of I can't make it look like that magazine or that person's house I was at, who has a housekeeper, so I'm not even gonna try. So it also has to deal with the standards that we either set for ourselves or perhaps that society sets for us that could be realistic or unrealistic. So I think again it comes back to some of the things that we are talking about earlier with. Perception and control in terms of how much you can control in order to reach those standards that are either in your own mind set by yourself or perhaps set by society or in your words set by that particular magazine. Yeah, and so in your perspective, as we've been discussing this recently. Does it surprise you that I am more of a quote unquote perfectionist than you? We've been married, tomorrow will be, this will air later on, but in real time, tomorrow. It will be 15 years since he got on one knee and asked me to marry him. So in this past 15 years of me wearing this ring on my finger. Would you say ever in that time that I was a perfectionist over you? No, never in that time and perhaps still not to this day, even based on this survey. OK, go on with that. So I think that Perhaps we have found some insightful information from this particular survey in terms of how it is interpreted to be a perfectionist or not a perfectionist, and it leads to some interesting conversations that are very insightful and brings about additional understanding. However, I think that the original definition that we looked at today is that a person who refuses to accept any standard short of perfection and that that standard must be achieved, even if they believe that it is unrealistic or unachievable. Hm. That definitely in some ways would be different than what this list that we gave is. I think as I'm reflecting back on what I've been told and what I've thought, The thing that pops out in my head that changed my mind that maybe I am a perfectionist. I, I mean, yes, I can look at my quote unquote achievements, but my why, my personal feelings about things, was one of the questions, #3 on the perfectionist list was feel a fear of failure. And thinking, I can't have that perfect house. So I'm not gonna try. I can't do this. So I'm not even gonna try. And I think is different than what your list where it's saying perfect at all costs, right? Exactly, but perhaps the point of going through this survey and being able to determine how we associate with these particular words on either the perfectionism category or the excellence category is not necessarily to particularly define us as a perfectionist or not a perfectionist, but instead to bring us to new insights and new understanding. Yeah, I think that's the biggest takeaway. Um, maybe I'll just quickly read over the list again of excellence, cause this is, again, it's not a black or white, cut or dry. If you can say yes or no, you're in this category for the rest of your life, or you're screwed up or messed up or anything like that. But it was motivating to me for the excellence category, saying realistic, says I want, desire success, you make requests, you focus on the process, it's life is freeing, self-accepting, you focus on reality, you focus on language and story connections, and you're flexible instead of rigid. And I feel like none of those are negatives. Exactly. So hopefully you were able to follow along with our list of words and do this insightful study in terms of determining if you associate with perfectionism versus excellence and at the end of the day, determine where your motivation comes from and how you see the world because that's what we want to achieve at I hate Talking. So, from your friends at Iha Talking, until next time, remember, it is only through talking that we begin the journey to understanding.