Condescending Canadian Poutine

 We take on a word request by Good ol Boy Mike at Sips, Suds & Smokes podcast: poutine.

The hosts discuss the word "poutine" at the request of a fellow podcaster, intentionally avoiding prior research to see what they can recall or deduce about its meaning and origins.

Key Points:

• Initial Guesses and Context:
  • The hosts recall a conversation with another podcast host about Canadian culture, leading to the topic of poutine.
  • They guess that poutine is a Canadian food, likely potato-based (thick-cut fries), with some kind of cheese or dairy and a sauce, possibly garlic.
• Actual Definition and Etymology:
  • Upon looking it up, they confirm poutine is a Canadian dish of French fries, cheese curds, and gravy, originating in Quebec in the 1950s.
  • The etymology is uncertain but may relate to French Canadian words for “pudding,” “mess,” or “potato,” and is thought to mean something like “potato mess.”
  • Poutine has become a symbol of Canadian cuisine and is popular as a bar snack, with many possible toppings.
• Personal Experiences:
  • The hosts share stories about dining in Canada, including a faux pas involving asking for ranch dressing with fries at a nice restaurant in Vancouver, which was met with disapproval.
  • They discuss the rarity of ranch dressing outside the US and how such requests can be seen as an “American” behavior in Canada.
• Cultural Reflection:
  • The episode explores how food customs can highlight cultural differences and sometimes lead to embarrassment or feelings of being an outsider.
  • The hosts touch on the broader topic of condescension, especially in situations where someone is unfamiliar with local customs or knowledge, and how this can be frustrating or alienating.

Conclusion:
The episode uses poutine as a lens to discuss Canadian culture, language, and etiquette, as well as the experience of navigating unfamiliar social norms. The conversation is lighthearted, blending curiosity, personal anecdotes, and reflections on cultural humility.

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Any views expressed on this podcast are those solely of the hosts and is for entertainment purposes only. None of the content is medical advice or financial advice.

Special thanks to Tim Wright aka CoLD SToRAGE for his permission to use the song Operatique.

Transcript

I Hate Talking: 0:29

Welcome to episode 31 of I Hate Talking. Hi everyone. So it is interesting that we had the intent to number all of our episodes, and now we're indeed forgetting our own episode numbers, so maybe. It's not necessary anymore. It's, it may be time to stop referring to the episodes in numerical order actually in the intro. Oh man, now we have to start thinking about a different intro though. Perhaps, or maybe our listeners will let us know that they enjoy being reminded of what number episode we're on. Maybe. So today's word or phrase comes from our friends at another podcast called SIPs Suds and Smokes, and uh good old boy Mike requested that we talk about the etymology of poutine. Yes, I can't wait. I did not look it up. He made me promise not to Google it or search it beforehand. So it was great meeting him and talking to him, and so I can't wait to hear what it's about. And likewise, I also did not do any research on this particular word, uh, just to see what we can perhaps come up with from our own recollections of what this is and maybe, uh, what its history is. So normally we would do a little bit of research ahead of time and make sure that we have our word or phrase sort of. Researched and documented before we start an episode, but this one's a little bit different. So what is your guess or perhaps based on some memory, what is poutine? OK. So, as we were chatting with him one evening, We were explaining our podcast, and he was talking about his podcast, and he just instantly said, do you know what poutine is? And I feel like I even had to clarify cause I didn't. Know if I heard him right. So honestly, I have no clue. By the phrase, I was impressed he pulled it out so quickly. He knew that word. Well, it did relate to the conversation at the table, and I guess that is something that perhaps I picked up on that you did not because we may have been conversing with other people like actually in the moment, but I was listening to what -- the other side of the table was talking about -- as well. Yeah, because we, I mean we were sitting beside each other, but a lot of the time I was talking to my right and you were talking to the left. And I do, that makes sense, because we were kind of in and out of that conversation, and I was talking to somebody else. So, um, That would make sense that there's context. I just heard him say, hey, tell me what this word means. I was like, oh, -- I don't -- know. I see. So yes, to your perspective, it came out of nowhere, but it actually was part of the thread of conversation. OK, OK. So what was the thread of the conversation that y'all were having? Well, I will give you some pieces of the thread of the conversation because maybe it will be helpful in giving the definition and etymology of the word poutine. Uh, they were talking about Canadians and some Canadian cultural type things. OK, I do remember them talking about Canada. We talked about Uh, I can tell you later a story too. I shared the story at the table of how I humiliated you when we were in Canada one time. So having Canada as context, is it a kind of like hors d'oeuvres or like maybe a kind of appetizer? So you're on the right track and I think given that, perhaps I can take over and give some perhaps guesses in terms of what I think it is. So it definitely is a food. I know that for 100% that it is some kind of dish. It is potato-based, would sort of be what we would call in America french fries, but not like shoestring french fries. I would sort of picture. More almost steak fries or like a thick cut french fry like maybe in Five Guys style or Even perhaps like a size and shape of what you would get at buffalo wild wings for their wedges, um, in terms of just the the size and shape of the potato. Uh, I guess they might call those chips in the UK, the UK version, uh, rather than fries. Uh, but nonetheless, that would be sort of the base. There's some kind of cheese or dairy product associated with it, and I think there's some kind of sauce as well. And maybe. Garlic. So that's sort of what I would picture when I think of poutine. OK, well, all those sound amazing. I love all those ingredients together. And then I believe the etymology, if I had to guess, would probably be something French, uh, because of the spelling being a PO U T uh root word there sounds French. It also would make sense in terms of like French Canadian that perhaps that would be part of their. Historical culture. Right, yeah. All right, so we'll also turn first to our desk references that we referred to last time our Little and Ives reference dictionary and our 1828 Merriam-Webster's dictionary. I suspect that it will not be in either of those dictionaries, but we'll find out. Right, yeah, and especially if it comes from French Canadian, it would make sense if that wouldn't be in these books. Are you even gonna look up the Stron's accordance? -- Probably -- not. No, I think we can quite, uh, certainly skip the Strons concordance. Jesus didn't eat that. I don't know, would it be kosher? Um, I don't, oh, now I'm way over my head. I have no idea. There's dairy. I think dairy can be mixed. I mean, there's no meat, you said. Not that I'm aware of, no. Oh, but if you sprinkled some bacon on top too, that sounds amazing, and then definitely not kosher. That is true. So, in our first reference book here, the Little and Ives, Webster Dictionary, and Home Reference library, the entry poutine does not exist as suspected. OK, yeah. And then if it's not in that, I'm sure it's not going to be in the 1828 version, but we'll we'll check nonetheless. And as expected, it does not exist as an entry in the American Dictionary of the English Language, No Webster, 1828, 1st edition facsimile. OK. So now I have to go to the good old Google, huh? I do believe that is our next step, so we will. Look there and see what we can find. All right, so with just typing in poutine into Google, the Google overview gives the following. Poutine is a Canadian dish of French fries, cheese curds, and gravy. Oh, I like your cheese sauce. Yeah, that sounds more appetizing and maybe that's what I had perhaps put in my own expectations and desires into that definition. Velveeta, melted Velveeta on top is what I was picturing and wanting. I highly doubt Canadians Velveeta. Uh, it originated in Quebec in the 1950s and has become a symbol of Canadian cuisine and culture. That's typically a popular bar snack, and it has gained global popularity in recent decades. And it can be topped with many different ingredients including various vegetables, bacon, chili, and pulled pork. OK, so not kosher. I not with the, uh, the toppings, and I guess it depends on the exact ingredients of the gravy, perhaps if uh it would be kosher with the standalone as those three particular things. Hm. What do you think of gravy on potatoes? Have you ever had that? I think most people, OK, well, yes, on mashed potatoes during Thanksgiving, yes, yes, OK, that's not a novel concept. I can picture that. I was picturing French fries. This is more like a wedge or fry, right? Yeah, it says French fry, I guess perhaps Google's serving up results that I am going to understand as an American, but uh yeah, some sort of fried potato. I think I have had poutine before, perhaps now that I'm thinking of this one time. But it would not be a normal occurrence for me to consume gravy on top of this style of fried potato. Interesting. Well, poutine, we can try it sometime. Did they mention this after I shared my Canadian story with them, or was this beforehand? I don't remember the exact sequence of events. It was, I think, because they wanted to know the etymology of poutine. So, uh, there's actually quite a lot of different theories. It is. Have a lot of potential relationship to regional French languages in that area of Canada, where it may have been related to the word. Poin, which is the word for pate, so sort of the way that it would be prepared, and potete. No idea if I'm pronouncing that correct, but that would be sort of their word for potato. And it also could be related to the English or even Quebec slang where it comes from a word pudding or a word that means mess, and that would be sort of the source of -- the particular word -- for essentially like a potato mess, potato mess, yes. Though the particular source words are not actually listed in These theories. So not sure what actual words were perhaps predecessors to that, but um. The Oxford language actually has a definition here that says it's from the French pudding, and then came to be used in Canadian French for that pudding or masses like the literal translation of that word. OK. And then I don't believe cheese curds were the form of dairy that you had in mind either when uh we were talking about the particular sauce that I had in my mind describing this definition of this word. No, I was definitely thinking more of like a queso, like I said, a Velveeta. That was, that's what I wanted. In my head, I was picturing like potato wedges with some Velveeta and some white queso. sprinkled on top, maybe some tomatoes and bacon, and then I was like, oh, I want that to eat right now. So, perhaps we can talk about the times that we have consumed Canadian fare and perhaps some of the embarrassing situations. I guess it's not as bad as if you had asked for American cheese. On a burger or something like that because we would want to make sure that we, uh, only ask for cheddar or Swiss and, uh, when you're in Canada, don't, don't ask for American cheese, so. Thanks, uh, good old Mike for the, uh, suggestion. Maybe we can throw one back to you and, uh, someday you can do a review of Elsie Marshall, Shotgun Granny, whiskey. Uh, that's what I'm sipping on at this particular juncture, but I'll turn it over to you for relating your particular story about your Canadian experience. So, for a while in our early years married, you were working up in Canada. And you'd spend the week there or whatnot, and then you, you'd come home for the weekend and you'd go back. One time I got off work and I went and visited you for the whole week. And it was my first real time in Canada, meeting your co-workers and experiencing everything there. It's beautiful. It was up in Vancouver and it was lovely. And one time we were at a really nice restaurant. And I asked for French fries. And then I asked for a ranch, and the mood. shifted so quickly and the sweet waiter was like, oh no, we don't use that word here. And I didn't know what I did. I didn't realize what a faux pas, asking for ranch. In Canada was until then. But again, I didn't ask for American cheese, so at least that's better, right? Yeah, I think so. didn't ask for American cheese, didn't refer to them as freedom fries, as was the uh the uh. Particular word that was used for a little while there. And uh but yes, the ranch thing was uh a particular faux pas that I think out of those three would have definitely been the uh least offensive, but Nonetheless offensive in some form or fashion to the Canadians. I know, I felt so bad and I felt bad. I could tell you where it is so embarrassed and like I'm sorry, I didn't know. I just really, really love dipping my fries and ranch. So then I don't even recall. Was there a particular dipping sauce that took the place of ranch or they just did not have this particular thing at all? Yeah, so, um, he said they have a house sauce, and it was very similar to ranch. It wasn't exactly the ranch I'm used to. Uh, he said he'll bring his house sauce out. Interesting. So, yeah, I don't know what you would ask for if you wanted ranch or if that is just, you asked for a house sauce, that sounds not very specific. -- I don't -- know. Yeah, that's, I'm not sure. I still, this was like 15 years ago or so, and I still don't know the answer to it. So I guess as a bonus word or phrase, we'll try to figure out what Canadians call ranch when I ask Google the uh All powerful AI gives me. The word ranch when it comes to like a cattle ranch. So, oh wow, I feel like in America, wouldn't like ranch be the dressing first option? I would think so, um, especially, I mean, I guess perhaps in the Restaurant. Right. Context, right? It's not gonna be talking about a cattle ranch. Now this says that Canadians call it by the same name, ranch dressing, so maybe it's changed. I'm not sure. 15 years ago or we just had. I will grant it, when you're at a nice restaurant, it's not sophisticated to request ranch as a dipping sauce, but they made it sound like such a big deal that like, I was basically Stepping on their flag or something, that I feel like it has to be worse than that, right? I guess so. I think it is perhaps just associated with Americans being pretentious and thinking that the world revolves around America because what I'm reading here is that it like doesn't really even exist outside of the US so, probably because we were perhaps in a more touristy part, they had some sort of ranch equivalent, but Uh, I guess in like the normal, quote unquote parts of Britain or Canada or Australia seeing a lot of references that it does not really exist. Really, so if you go overseas, you're likely not to get ranch. At least as of like 4 years ago, where I'm seeing a lot of these comments, um. Perhaps now that we're in more of a ubiquitous culture across the globe, maybe it's become more of a mainstay, but yeah, it looks like ranches, for all intents and purposes still is pretty much just an American thing. And that would make sense that Canada would be exposed to it a little bit. But again, we're so, at that point, we were so close to the border of the US that's just more of a frustration that As Americans are coming over there and. Using their nice restaurant to dip ranch. Exactly. I think it could have been offensive that you didn't ask for cheese curds and gravy. I, I yeah, I, I don't want to eat that. Well, there you have it. So that is our word or phrase of the episode, poutine. Nice poutine. So speaking of condescension that perhaps the Canadian waiter had for you, what are your thoughts on Having these type of conversations about either knowledge or the lack of knowledge and how that can make a person feel if they are being condescended too. Oh, that's a good question. I think it really depends. Oh, go ahead. Right. No Are you gonna condescend me? I was gonna, I was gonna be condescending because it took you a while to come up with a response. But anyway, back to you. All right, so we can cut all this, but it reminds me of like, all those jokes where like, someone says a fancy word. And then someone's like, hey, dude, that's not cool, like, cause like, there's a crowd of people, and then they'll like turn to someone and be like, what that word means is, and like, explain it in super mundane terms. OK, what was the question about how do I feel about condescension? Yes, particularly when it comes to communicating knowledge, when there is either a perceived or real. Ignorance of that particular topic. OK, so I don't wanna play the victim. Or anything like that. But I feel like I get this fairly often, especially when I was in the workforce as a relatively young. Female, that's blonde for the most of my life, thinks the boxed color. I feel like a lot of professionals. Especially my voice is high. And I think that they often, they don't take me serious enough. I think that's really frustrating. There's certain times, even recent history times, where I feel like I would talk to males. And they'll like talk down to me, like, And I'm just sitting there like, dude, I know this. Like, I am so frustrated right now because I understand what you did. I read everything you're talking about. Why are you talking to me like I'm a 5 year old? So, I feel like that's the frustration is when there's this innate hierarchy, whether it's your boss or someone higher in an organization. Or anything like that, that um it can come out very condescending, if they just start talking to you without realizing your starting point. Precisely, and that actually reminds me of some training that we do in the workplace in general in terms of Harassment and ethical workplace things that uh you can't be condescending to one particular gender and not the other, because that would be in some form or fashion, potentially harassment or some sort of unwanted uh behavior in the workplace. So I guess for myself I'm an equal opportunity. Are you condescend. I just I'm condescending to. Do you feel like as a male you get that often? That I am condescending or that I am condescended too. Either one, but condescended too is what I was getting at. It maybe goes back to something we're talking maybe about an episode or 2 or 3 ago where perhaps there's that group project and uh somebody comes in at the last minute and claims the credit and what I would do in that situation, and I described the fact that I would do a lot of things in my power to even prevent that from being possible. So I would sort of take the same tact on condescension is that if there is a particular thing that I am going to do or present on or that will be my role and function. And then I'll do everything in my power to know what I need to know about that certain topic, so that I become the expert and therefore don't give others the opportunity to condescend to me. So, do you feel like even as maybe uh young, when you were right out of college, do you feel like that was your purpose too? Cause obviously, when you started your professional career right out of college, did you ever feel that tension of these older people looking down on you or condescending you, or did you just always strive to be equal or better? So it definitely did, and that's a good point. Earlier in the workforce, it's actually sort of weird now as a Older person, I guess. I, I don't, I don't feel old, but I, I mean, I do feel old, but I don't feel like I'm like an elder person. But it is strange that like before in my younger years, that I can like recall from even like a few years ago, like I would have to prove myself. And like present something and like sell it to make sure that they knew what I was saying was valid, that now I don't actually have to do that as much. Like people just believe me and it's sort of weird, right? Yeah, even like in my circles with motherhood, people are like, what do you do in this circumstance? I'm like, I don't know. I'm still learning. Like, why are you asking me? It's weird. I don't know when we passed that point. But when I was a young professional, back when I worked, there was a definite hierarchy because I worked in the medical field of sorts. And so there was like a different hierarchy with social workers and nurses and doctors and psychiatrists and psychologists. There was a hierarchy, there was like a respect and authority level that we all just had to play this game. I remember talking to a psychiatrist, and uh we were just chat chatting, and while we were working, and he asked about my college, and then come to find out I'm a Christian. And I remember him asking like, oh, do you actually read the Bible? I was like, yeah, yeah, I do. And I kind of just left it at that. He's like, well, that's really cute. And I remember just being like so frustrated because I can't, what am I supposed to say to that? He is at the top of the hierarchy. If I offend him or anything, like, I need him to come to my work and do his job, because it's a really hard to get someone at his level to do that. And it was just so condescending to say that my religion was cute. And we continued to talk further, and I just kind of listened to him. mock me, essentially. So I feel like that was an extreme example, but I still to this day get examples of, I mean, especially men, but examples of people, and they'll say like, how I should do something. And I'm like, well, Yeah, like if somebody was to tell me how to change a diaper, like I've changed diapers for Over a decade now. Like, you don't have to tell me how to change a diaper. So to me, that would be condescending and frustrating. Precisely. And I think that what you had originally asked about earlier in my career, I did also encounter that where, you know, perhaps I was a new person on the team and, you know, like you said, fresh out of college and relatively young, and They have to earn that trust, I guess, and making sure that. What I was Conveying and communicating was valid and true, um, in order to build that trust. And then once that trust was there, then people would not condescend to me in that form or fashion moving forward. And then I think as that network grew as well, then your particular reputation will precede you so that you will have less of that condescension in the future. And I think a big part of that is self-confidence is that. Even when people are condescending to you, one, you can be self-confident that you do know how to do something. As well as the humility to perhaps understand that they will communicate something that is helpful and that you can actually learn from that, even though they may be doing that from a perspective of somewhat. A negative perspective and being condescending, but still perhaps trying to impart that wisdom or knowledge in order to help you. Yeah, I think that's the right attitude to have is, where's the nugget of truth in this? Like, what can I learn or grow and like I said, be humble enough to listen. And maybe you'll learn something or maybe not, and you can move on. And it also makes me kind of as we're talking about like somehow. I don't know when, we stepped over that line, and now we're the more experienced ones that people will come to. So, I think being humble too when we're talking to people, cause even again, as new parents, I remember people I'd tell them things I want to do with my kid, and they would just kind of laugh it off, like, ah, first time mom, kind of thing. And it just made me feel so small and frustrated cause I'm like, no, I can do this. Like, I don't want my kids to have that much screen time, or whatever the thing was. And some of those things I often was like, oh, whoops. Well, yeah, I did it anyways. But trying to be humble on this side of it also, when you're talking to someone and not mocking them or not rolling your eyes when they tell you a dream or a goal or an idea they have, cause either it'll work out for them, great. Or they'll figure out in time that it doesn't have to be this perfect ABC order. Life happens and they can go with the flow. I don't think that's our job necessarily to tell them and burst their bubble. Yeah, I suppose so, as long as it's not dangerous or unethical, then perhaps letting them have that life experience and learning from it is the most appropriate response. Mhm. Yeah, I mean, there's definitely times like you said, like if someone's getting hurt or whatnot. But if it's just I like to type up my Excel sheet like this, or for like your work or whatnot, or like, I don't want my kids to watch this TV show, like, OK, that's fine, that's maybe in a couple of years they will. It's not my place to say, ha, I told you so. Precisely, and I think that's the key difference perhaps even in the definition of condescension is the attitude that the not only the person receiving that particular feedback, but also the person giving the feedback, are they doing it truly from a attitude of trying to impart wisdom and knowledge and some form of benefit to the person they're communicating to or? On the negative side, are they doing it just to make themselves look more knowledgeable and important when they're engaging in these particular conversations? Yeah, so you can feel condescended, right, when someone's talking to you, you can start to feel small. But do you think to be truly condescending or have a situation be truly condescending? Does both parties, like, does the person who is doing it, do they have to, do they have to be nefarious? Does it have to be a thought they have in their head? Or can the condescension just happen one-sided, where the first party doesn't even realize they did it? Well, now you're getting into perspectives and intent and perhaps even bumping up against boundaries in terms of the psychological definition. But I think that Right, wrong or indifferent, that perception is reality in a lot of circumstances and that this would be one of those where the perceived intent of the receiver of the condescension. Makes that the reality. So I think the person doing the communication needs to be clear that it is in, as long as it actually legitimately is done in a way that is a benefit to the person they're talking to. That it is for their good and that the person communicating has the best interest of the person. At mind that they're talking to. And I believe that also can be part of the reputation as well is that not only are you a trusted individual, but that you are doing things and communicating things for The betterment of others. So, I think my biggest life goal at this point, I'm not good at it. I need to keep working on it. But that reminds me of my grandmother, who had very strong convictions about things, but she was very loving to people. She was not condescending. She wasn't sweeping things under the rug, pretending things didn't exist. You knew her boundaries, you knew her beliefs, but When you were in her presence, you didn't feel like she was judging you and looking down on you? Even if you weren't living up to her ideals. And I loved that about her, and um I really strive to be that kind of person. I'm not there, but I really strive. That's who I want to be, someone that people know what I believe. And know that I'm hold true to it. I also know that they're safe with me and that I will still continue to love them. Precisely, and that's our goal for this podcast as well. We don't want to be condescending, but we want to be informative. So, from your friends at I Hate Talking, until next time, remember, it is only through talking that we begin the journey to understanding.