Synesthesia - Seeing Colors from Numbers and Shapes

 In episode 42, the hosts celebrate a podcast milestone and thank their loyal listeners before diving into the long-awaited topic of synesthesia-a phenomenon where stimulation of one sense involuntarily triggers experiences in another.

Key Points:

• Definition & Etymology:
  Synesthesia comes from Greek roots: "syn" (together) and "esthesia" (sensation). Unlike "anesthesia" (without sensation), synesthesia means combined or blended sensations. For example, someone might see colors when hearing music or associate numbers with specific colors.
• Prevalence & Research:
  Synesthesia is estimated to occur in about 2–4% of the population, more commonly in women, and is often hereditary. Research into synesthesia has grown over the past 40 years, partly because modern psychology now values self-reported experiences and has better neuroscience tools to study the phenomenon.
• Types of Synesthesia:
  Common forms include:
  • Seeing colors when hearing sounds or reading numbers/letters (grapheme-color or chromesthesia).
  • Auditory-tactile synesthesia, where sounds trigger physical sensations.
  • Mirror-touch synesthesia, where observing touch on others produces a tactile sensation in the observer.
• Personal Experiences:
  The hosts suspect one of their children experiences synesthesia and share personal anecdotes. One host describes associating shapes with numbers and being able to intuitively sense when a mathematical answer "feels" wrong, a skill that persists into adulthood. They reflect on how such abilities may be more pronounced in childhood and sometimes "trained out" by conventional education.
• Development & Awareness:
  Synesthesia typically appears in early childhood and is rarely acquired in adulthood. Many with synesthesia may not realize their experiences are unusual, assuming everyone perceives the world similarly. This lack of awareness can lead to underreporting.
• Overlap with Other Conditions:
  There is some overlap between synesthesia and autism spectrum conditions, with both sometimes involving unique sensory experiences.
• Reflection on Mental Load:
  The hosts discuss how the topic of synesthesia has lingered on their mental to-do list for months, using it as an example of how different priorities and mental loads can affect collaboration and communication.

Conclusion:
The episode offers a detailed yet accessible exploration of synesthesia, blending scientific background, etymology, and personal stories. The hosts highlight how synesthesia reveals the diversity of human perception and the importance of recognizing and discussing unique sensory experiences.

Want to listen to the episode that first generated this topic? Find it from November 21, 2024 (episode 34) or find it here: https://ihatetalking.buzzsprout.com/2354991/episodes/16138566-under-the-auspices-of-i-hate-talking-a-new-podcast-appears.

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Any views expressed on this podcast are those solely of the hosts and is for entertainment purposes only. None of the content is medical advice or financial advice.

Special thanks to Tim Wright aka CoLD SToRAGE for his permission to use the song Operatique.

Transcript

I Hate Talking: 0:29

Welcome to episode 42 of I Hate Talking. Hi everyone. And most likely with this particular episode, we will hit a new milestone with the number of downloads that we have achieved, or in other words, the number of listens that we have achieved. So shout out to all our consistent and loyal listeners out there that have listened to our particular podcast, as well as those that have shared it. Maybe this is an episode that you will share, maybe it won't be. We'll see. Yeah, thanks so much. We really Adam and I really have a lot of fun just spending this time together doing this, and also, um, we really like interacting with you all and we really appreciate you. Precisely. So, we will again follow the normal format of our show for this particular milestone, and that will be to start with a word or phrase of the episode. And today's word or phrase is synethesia. It's a hard word. If you can't tell, also, I'm sick, so my voice might feel like it probably sounds off. So I'm not even gonna try to say the word cause on a normal day, that would be harder for me. And today, having this cold, it's gonna be worse. And we've been teasing this particular word or phrase of the episode and the topic as well, since our episode that dropped on November 21st, 2024, which was episode 34. Wow, like over 2 months then. That is true. Has it been part of your mental load? Only when you mention it. And when we're going through our weekly or like family schedule or plans, you'll mention it occasionally, and I'll be, I'll get to it. I'll get to it. But now, I don't think about it until you bring it up. Yeah, I suppose we just need to put it in our cello list so that it is not part of our mental load -- or my mental load anyway because -- has it been part of -- your mental load -- if it if it's not written down. And there's sort of maybe a breaking point where I expect to get to something by a certain time period that I will just make it part of my mental checklist rather than actually writing it down, but it's been too long and I should have written it down, but it has been part of my mental load that along with keto and sourdough. And there's probably some other topic that I'm forgetting. OK, well, can I play devil's advocate and maybe it's not that, maybe it's because it wasn't part of my mental load, cause I've literally only think about it when you mention it, so you are carrying that mental load instead of me. I suppose so, but I also think it has something to do with the fact that you don't particularly care if we get to that topic. I, I think it's great and I want to talk about it, but Guys, I'm sorry, my voice. I want to talk about it, but it's not the end all be all. It's not like when I know I have a deadline to sign the kids up for their sport and the deadline before it gets filled. Like that is urgent for me. This isn't. I suppose so, but maybe we lost a listener that was waiting for the synesthesia episode, and then we never got it in the last 8 episodes, and now they don't listen anymore. Well, then it just wasn't destiny for them. So we also have a purple drink in honor of our Syneheia episode. Last time it was also a purple beer, which last time it was the wicked weed pernicious IPA. This is a different purple IPA. I don't feel like purple is a common beer color, is it? Apparently it is because this is Sierra Nevada's cryo Fresh torpedo, wet hop IPA. Well, that sounds delicious. Good job. Enjoy. So that is in honor of the favorite color discussion that we had as part of the Synethesia teaser. So now we'll get to finally our word or phrase of the episode, synethesia. Excellent. So it does have a root word that probably most people are familiar with. Sin, which is meaning from the Greek together. So we actually even used this in some of our previous episodes when we talked about synonyms, words that sound the same. So that is the root word sin together, and then I think we were actually pronouncing it correctly in our episode on November 21st and then I think we found some other resources that actually had the incorrect word synthesia, which is not what we're talking about, we're talking about syneesia. And because there's the E in between the synaia. Correct. Oh I said I wasn't gonna say the word, and I think I did. -- I think -- he did it. I just got got in my head for a while there, I'm good. So, the synesthesia may be familiar with that latter part of the word, the second part of the word, anesthesia, where there is some sort of dulling of the senses through some sort of medical procedure. Which also comes from the Greek, anesthesia and which means without and a thesis, which means. Sensation, a thesis is a sensation and the and is without, so when you have anesthesia applied, you don't have any more sensation. So this word of the day. Exactly. synesthesia then means that you have combined sensations for a particular input within your senses. So it's like the opposite for sure. So anesthesia means it stops the sensations. That's why you have it when you have pain or surgeries. Synesthesia would be having excessive almost, or multiple. Precisely, yes, that's right. Right. Now it's also interesting to note that the word thesis in the English comes from the Greek, and that has a completely different meaning and root word where you are putting something forth. So when you have a thesis statement, you are making or proclaiming or putting something forth that you are claiming as truth. Whereas this word, synethesia has long E sound and means sensation. So upon some further research that I did upon this because they are both Greek root words. In terms of a thesis for sensation and thesis for putting something forth, can't potentially say this is 100% true because we are not Greek speakers, is that the word thesis would have actually been pronounced thesis. During the Greek period. I Correct. Wow, we're just getting so much information here. We do have a lot of information on this podcast, you can tell us whether it is helpful or not. On that note, one of our kids was doing a rough draft of a report, and I was helping him. I checked it and was helping him check it for errors. I asked him like, what's this word? He goes, I was trying to write in Old English. So he was writing as if he was a character in like the 1800s, and which is super clever, and I love that about him. And I was like, what's this word? And he's like, It's the word the. And he spelled it T H E A U. like um he's like, oh, I forget. Should we just do T A H E and then hopefully they'll read it the proper way. Yeah He was trying to get his point across that it was old English. English. He was afraid they were going to read it as the he wanted them to read it as the. Well, the theses and Es are important in King James, and we do have an IV and ESV, so perhaps another topic for another day on Bible translations. Yeah. Oh, that's been a hot topic in our house, so we should. But right now we're talking about the thing that's been on your mental load for 2 months. Synesthesia, so. We've talked about the root words, sin that means with or together and the athesia, which means sensation, so multiple sensations. In the modern English, and really this actually became a word even in the modern English within the last perhaps 4 decades or so, is that synesthesia is a perceptual phenomenon where stimulation of one sense triggers involuntary experiences in another. So this means that when you hear music or perhaps a particular note played that you will see a color, or that when you look at a number, that you will see that in some sort of color. And experience multiple senses at once, even though there is typically only one input sense being stimulated. So, this, according to various research, and again, this is actually relatively new in the realm of psychological research because it really is only within the past 40 years that this has been studied. is that it is present in 2 to 4% of the population. It's Typically more seen within women. And there are more common variants where the common variants are numbers and auditory tones produce colors. Yeah. So, I guess, um, in the research I did, it talks about, this was definitely referenced in the early 1900s as well, but it really was only researched and kind of formated more recently, you said in the 40 years. But I did my own personal research here at our home base with our child that we suspect has this, but also, um, like you said, it's 2 to 4% of the population, and there's a slight marker that it's hereditary, but it's not definite or always the case, which obviously, when you see 2 to 4%. That's a hard population to pin down. That's true. And part of the reason that this has not been well documented is actually because of sort of the methods used for psychological research in the past is that the psychological research did not really rely on the reporting of the patient themselves. So they would basically need to actually study this within like a controlled experiment or Some form of measured scientific experiment and they did not really rely on the actual input from the person that they are studying. So a person may actually report that they saw colors of a number. But that would be particularly discounted because you couldn't really measure it. Whereas with some of the modern day things that we can do with neuroscience and measuring actual brain activity, as well as just the fact that we rely more on the reported effects and experiences of people, that this has gained traction in terms of the research that has been done. Again, quote unquote recently, but more within the 4 decades or so leading up to this point. Right. And also, for those who may or may not have this, the research shows that either you're born with it possibly, or you develop it in early childhood. It's rare that you develop this as an adult. It happens, I guess there's cases, but it's very, very uncommon. So like for me in my dreams, and one day maybe we'll talk about this sleep thing I have. I did not know people did not dream like I do, and most of our kids now cause they tell me stories too, and I figured it out. But I did not know until I went to college and started taking psychology courses that people don't dream like I do. Like this is what I know, this is normal. So I think a lot of individuals maybe have possibly, this is just my theory, I'm not. A professional in any sense, but like in my head, I'm thinking, if this is what you've known since early childhood, This isn't something necessarily to bring up. Like, I didn't talk to people about like my dreams and how I can change them and control them, cause that, I just thought everyone did it. Like, this is just life. So if you see these, if you make these connections with colors and sounds or numbers and colors or whatever. Maybe you just think this is just how life is, and you don't report it or talk to the doctor about it, cause that's life. That is very true. I think that actually has a name when you are experiencing life and you just assume that everybody else experiences. I think it's actually one of the words that's not an English word that is like one of the words in the top 10 other languages, words that like define experience, so maybe we'll find that. Adam's new mental load word. You're gonna think about this until we talk about it. Well, I'm gonna go research what that's actually called and mark it down. And then also for those that are wondering about the dream state that you're describing where you potentially can control your own dream, that would be called lucid dreaming. But back to synethesia. So there also, like you said, is a indication that it happens hereditary and also within young children, you don't really develop this as a an adult. But there's also some overlap potentially with the autism spectrum condition where people on the spectrum would have some of the synesesia. And there's a variety of different styles of synesthesia and they have their own names. We've already described some of the ones with the fact that you would see colors with either reading numbers or hearing sounds, but there's actually ones that are associated with auditory tactile where you hear a sound and actually feel physical things or mere touch where you are touching something and feel touch somewhere else within your body. So there are a whole host of different synesthesia experiences where those senses overlap one from the other or even multiple or the same sense where you are experiencing those things. I also think that perhaps young children. Have this. And that As a society, we. Teach this out of their experience. So, for example, this is again going to rely somewhat on my own experience is that I seem to recall when I was a small child. That I would have shapes associated with numbers. And that would be something that falls within the synesthesia category. And I still retain some of this to this very day, where I will be able to look at a formula or set of numbers and Sort of feel if it is correct or not. So this actually happened just this very week. OK, tell me that what happened? So there was a formula, a set of 4 numbers added together that resulted in a total. These numbers were 136, 25, and 9. And the total given was 150, and I knew that was wrong by just looking at it. I did not calculate it. I did not do any sort of mental calculation in my mind to add those numbers together. I just knew that 150 was incorrect because they were not, they didn't, they didn't fit. That's a good, yes, that's a good way of saying it because I do see it, I think, roughly as a shape. OK. And I knew it was wrong. So I didn't know exactly what was wrong with it. I didn't know if it was too high or too low. But I knew it was incorrect. And then I can do the mental calculation to add up all those numbers and arrive at the correct result of 152. But I had to do the extra steps. I feel like as a child. That I could just look at it and know that it was 152 and I wouldn't have to actually do the mental calculations. So I still retain some of that ability today that I can look at something and know whether it's right or not. And I do spend a bit of my time at my vocation and job looking at spreadsheets. And I also have the same experience to some degree. In that as well, where, you know, if there's a formula that is incorrect within the spreadsheet and results in something that is the wrong result that I'll be able just to look at it and tell that it's wrong. And again, not know exactly why it's wrong or even necessarily what direction it is wrong, if it's too high, too low, whatever the case may be. But I just know that it is incorrect. Do you remember in your head right now, thinking back to earlier this week? Do you have a figure like a not number figure, but like a Shape in your head that you can think of. Cause when you're talking, I'm like, OK, there's like a rectangle here and a triangle that fits over it. Now they're 3 dimensional, maybe 4 dimensional shapes. They can't even picture that. They're definitively not two dimensional, OK. Huh, so, can you give any more definition of like what you are picturing? Or if you can't, that's fine too. Now, see, and I think this is where it has been trained out of me because of the routine mathematical procedure that is normal within elementary school that you do the addition, subtraction, long division, multiplication, and you get very good at times tables and things of that nature. But that if you hadn't been trained, and this actually I think is part of Einstein's experience perhaps, where he was like super gifted as a child, maybe I'm thinking of Edison, one of those two, Einstein or Edison, we'll start with the. That they were like super gifted as a child. Mathematically, and then they went to school and we're still really, really good at math. They lost this like intrinsic ability of just looking at numbers and knowing what things were. Einstein was sent home because they thought he was developmentally incapable of learning. I think I'm pretty sure it was Einstein. I'm pretty sure that's that that anecdote is about. Yeah, the famous story of Einstein is that his mom was told he's too dumb. He can't come here anymore, and so she started homeschooling him. And then obviously he's who he is. We can talk about that sometime, cause maybe that's not true, but that's like the lore that I hear in the homeschool world. OK, so I'm so interested. You do not know what happened today in our home, and I love hearing this about you. And I want to talk about this specifically because it affects us. And maybe y'all listening, that matters to what You all obviously want to hear what affects you. When I was doing some research on this, because I didn't want to come in completely naive, like, oh, I remember hearing this 20 years ago. I wanted to know what I was talking about. I talked to our child that we suspect has this. And I realized that he hasn't mentioned it in a while. And so I asked him like, hey, do you still see colors when you talk about numbers? And he asked like, what am I talking about? And I was like, well, when you're younger, you used to say like, 2 was the color red. And his words verbatim were. I don't do that anymore. But 2 is yellow. And I thought that was really interesting. His sibling butted in. And I was like, no, 2. I, you said a different color. And then this first child said, 1 is red, 2 is yellow, 3 is blue, and then just continued on with this conversation. And I just thought it was interesting that he said, I don't do that anymore. But then he was able to quickly correct me on the facts. So I think that does lend some support to the fact that modern day teaching of mathematical concepts drives this out of people and that this may be some sort of intrinsic ability that humans have that gives them greater capacity and control over mathematical function and other things that they have to think through because Again, this actually can be associated with words or sounds or touch that in our modern day instructional style that it actually drives out this ability and you use sort of your cognition to do The calculations rather than whatever this extra ability is. Right, so that's what I want to talk about. I thought it was crazy interesting hearing him say that. So, matter of fact and quick, and then hearing you recollect this strange memory from almost 40 years ago. So my question to you is like, how do we stop this? Cause I can see a benefit in it. We haven't told him he's wrong. In fact, when he was younger and I'd hear him say it. There's a TV show called Number Blocks. So at first I thought maybe he was referencing that. But the colors didn't line up. And I asked him, and he's like, they get it wrong. Like that was his answer. They get those colors wrong. And I was like, well, I guess he really has this, cause I have met one other legitimate person I know for sure. In college that have this, they were really into it, and this was like, very obvious in their life. He's not calling back to this TV show we watch a lot. He said they'd get it wrong. They're not those colors. And even when our other child corrected him. And he corrected him back. I went back and looked in number blocks, the TV show. Her 2nd child was referencing the number block's colors. And this child was correcting him. Which makes me think, oh, that one remembers the number blocks TV show. And this child was like, no, they get it wrong, that's not the colors. But I do not ever want him to think he's wrong by thinking that. So by his callous answer of just like, I don't do that anymore. We didn't tell him that's weird. I mean, that's horrible. If you all do that, it's not weird. But like, we didn't say those words. We didn't tell him that's not normal, that 96% of the population doesn't do that. We did not tell him anything. We just kind of, in our parenting, we kind of like ask questions, but also just kind of leave it open-ended. Unless we have a strong opinion on something. So I wonder where he's getting that. Are we putting that into him that he's wrong by thinking that? Or why does he quote unquote, not do that anymore? Well, I think in terms of calculating numbers through either shapes or color combinations. So addition, multiplication. Subtraction, division, which really division is subtraction in many, many times over and same thing for multiplication just being addition multiple times over and over. That Maybe because the majority of the population does not have that ability or just because that is what we have decided is the right way to do things as a society is to actually do the calculations and add the numbers together and not just look at the numbers and see that the blue number plus the red number equals the purple number or that the number shaped like. Such and such, plus the number. Sad like such and such. Looks like this shape, which is equivalent to this number. That that is not repeatable. Or experimental in nature where it can be repeated over and over again that we discount those things. Should I encourage this in him or how should I approach it from then on? Yeah, I think you have to live in the. 96% world. If you have some sort of special ability where you're in the 4% or less that. That may not be recognized by the majority and you just need to. Do what the majority does, but Still retained perhaps some of that ability. That sets you apart or. Makes you special, but it's not really necessarily. The primary Method of anything. So now looking back. Do you think that math or problems or anything like that would be easier for you if you honed in On those shape number problems, or does it not really matter? So I think for precise math. And maybe that's also a difference is that you have to do the calculations to arrive at a very specific number. With decimal places and things of that nature that maybe synethesia in terms of colors and shapes of numbers would get you. The 3 as pi, but in the scientific world that we live in. Where we need to go to 3.14 or beyond. That synethesia will not serve you in that particular instance, and you need to know the exact calculations. What does that mean with our, with pie with our kids, different kid. Oh, we have so many kids. But when they were telling you, they were stressed out about pie, and you were like 3.14 is good enough. Just that'll get you through life, don't worry. Do you remember that? I do, yes, and that does get people through most of life. You really only need to know how many digits of pi. Really, in the antiquated world, 3 got them through most of the things that they needed to do. So unless you're designing the next space shuttle or something, I think 3.14 is gonna serve you very well. OK, this is super niche. For the few people that know me in childhood, but I will say it cause you're listening. I know some of you are. There's a time. Have you ever heard this story of summer camp? I was at summer camp with my church people, and we had one kid who's extremely intelligent. Is this in the Death Valley camp or a different one? Oh, a different one. Good question though. This is a much smaller, very precise camp. I didn't know you could get smaller than Death Valley. No, Death Valley is the hottest. Oh my goodness, the hottest. Oh my goodness, don't get me started. -- The hottest camp all around -- come to Death Valley. -- Death Valley -- they really say that when they advertise it, the hottest summer camp around. I don't know. I didn't see the ad I did not see advertisements. My parents just sent me there, but it is the hottest place on earth, and we had to go there in August, in the hottest month of the year. And have to wear full clothing, like no shorts or anything cause that's immodest. Anyways, well, we can talk about that another time. It's amazing. I love my time there. I really did. And that's not satire. I loved it. I wouldn't probably send my kids there, but I loved my experience. This camp, they had a talent show, and we had this kid at our church that was so smart, probably one of the still, still to this day, one of the smartest people I personally know. He memorized high to, I don't know, 100 and something digits. He stood up there and said it all. And it, it takes a long time. So then we all get up and we do this extremely long, unexciting dance as a group. It was not good. But it was very choreographed and all that. And then we could tell the crowd was getting very bored of it. And so then we had him stand up and start at pie again, and the audible groan from the audience was hilarious. But it was all planned. We knew that would happen. But it's still, I can still hear it, feel it. Uh, it's a big lore part of the people I grew up with and I love it. But yes, so pie, so you're saying that syneheia would get you to 3, would get you to the closest number. And you can figure it out from there. If you don't know i to the 100th digit, that's OK. You can figure it out once you get there. I have never memorized pie nor no pie. I would be curious to know if the person that was reciting pie saw Pie as colors and was actually using that as a way methodology to recall the numerical values. All right, let's see who knows how many pies cause he's told me. Ready? Let's do it together. -- 3.41 -- I beat you there. Let's let's do it again. Restart 3.141516379. Well there you go. You can design the rocket. There's not really in modern day a lot of use of circles. Everything is squares and rectangles. What color's a rectangle? What color is rectangle? A square is like a dark, deep blue, and a rectangle is like a light blue. OK, that's not what our child said. See, and that is also the reason that synethesia has been discounted for so long is that people have different colors for different numbers and shapes. So because there is no consistency, they just think it's Bunk. Right, like, you're just making stuff up. Yeah. When I asked that, they were like, why are you asking? And I was like, I don't know, and I quickly summarized all this. I was like, like, what color is the triangle? And without blinking, he said, yellow. Well, that's interesting cause I was thinking yellow because I don't know if I really like triangles, and we still haven't found the sweater, but triangles and that sweater and the yellow color are just off-putting to me. What do you mean a sweater? Well, clearly you don't listen to our podcast because we talked about the putrid yellow sweater that you would wear and I would hate and other people loved. My favorite, yes, my favorite but I got compliments on all the time. Y'all, my birthday is coming up. And I'm a big celebration person. No matter who you are, like, I love to celebrate everybody for existing, no matter anyone. So, I also love to celebrate my existence. And I was looking for a new sweater, cause it's winter. And every sweater I liked was yellow. And I withheld buying it, cause I know you hate it so much. But they're so cute and they look so good on me. Perhaps so. We still have not found the yellow sweater, so maybe you got rid of it. -- I know you did -- actually. -- I listened to it's -- not a sweater. It's a t-shirt, by the way. I listened. Oh well, that makes sense. It was a shirt. That's why I was confused. It's a shirt, a short sleeve shirt, and you got rid of it. -- I know -- you did. Our listeners can go back and listen to episode 34 just like I did tonight. And you said that you got rid of it in that episode. Um, maybe I did, but I shouldn't though. You should just get over it and accept it's my color. So, there you go. Triangles and yellow, not my favorite. I like blue squares. And Numbers that are shaped like -- shapes that I can't describe in -- blue. Yeah, but also purple and gray and. Circles are acceptable. I've never thought about this before, but instantly when you were talking, -- like -- people ask what your favorite color is, like, why don't you ask what your favorite shape is. Can we, can we start that, be like, hi, my name is Steph. What's your favorite shape? I think we should. That is so weird. When you were talking though, I instantly was like my brain flashed a circle and purple. So I guess purple and, but not purple, OK y'all, not purple lilac. I recently heard someone talking and lilac is the color I like. Don't be sending me -- purple -- purple. We said lavender last time, so lilac is more lilac. Yes, I learned the difference. lilac is what I like. I like circles and lilac, and you like squares and blue? What did you say? I think I like squares which are blue. -- But I like they're -- not squares. I don't know. That's just what I see. And then I like gray, but also like we talked about last time and even to some degree this time I like purple. But do you like purple purple? -- Like this is purple -- torpedo IPA that's, yeah, like the royal purple. Yes, -- you like royal purple -- sort of the background of our podcast. Yes, purple. And you like square. I don't think I like squares cause it's too sharp on the edges. Did you do look around it, so when you get your nails done. Well, that has never happened. Well, but if you did, they'll ask you square or rounded. And then you'll If you're my generation say square, and then they'll say rounded square, and you say yes. And that's like a square. But then the edges are off, so it's not pokey. Do you like that kind of square? Or do you like Pokey Square? I don't know. Do you enjoy this sharp edge, 90 degree, so you like 90 degree squares. Or look at look he's looking at right now, two edges are rounded. Which 2 and then 2 are 90 degree, which do you, which are you drawn to? Mm, maybe in between there, I would, I would like rounded with like a 5 degree rounding. This is too rounded for you? Yes. I don't know how we're gonna keep all this. We're going way off topic. We're a podcast and talked about very visual things. I'll put it in our Instagram. You can come look and now we have YouTube too, so YouTube. We can put it on YouTube. You can watch our podcast logo while you're listening. -- Maybe -- one day we'll have TikTok, not banned it anymore. I doubt it. So, from your friends that I hate talking, until next time, remember, it is only through talking that we begin the journey to understanding.