Sonder and Realization that All People Have Deep Complex Life Experiences

 In episode 43, the hosts discuss the concept of sonder, a neologism coined by John Koenig in 2012 in his blog The Dictionary of Obscure Sorrows. A word with no etymology per se, the episode unpacks the word’s meaning, origins, and how it applies to daily life.

Key Points:

• Definition and Origin:
  "Sonder" is defined as the realization that each random passerby is living a life as vivid and complex as your own, with their own ambitions, routines, and worries. The word is a recent invention (neologism) and, while it may draw on French and German roots, it was created specifically to fill a gap in English vocabulary.
• Clarifying Usage:
  The hosts clarify that "sonder" is not about being the main character in your own story, but about recognizing that everyone else is the main character in theirs. You are just a minor figure in the vast, intricate stories of others.
• Examples and Misconceptions:
  The hosts discuss personal anecdotes-such as interactions in a Costco line and reactions to commercials-to distinguish between experiencing sonder and simply reflecting on your own perspective. True sonder involves actively considering the complexity of others’ lives, not just your own role in their stories.
• Practical Application:
  The conversation highlights that experiencing sonder can lead to greater empathy, patience, and understanding-especially in situations like driving, where it’s easy to forget that other people have their own urgent reasons and challenges.
• Cultural Impact:
  The word "sonder" is not yet found in official dictionaries but is gaining traction online and in popular culture. It resonates with people who appreciate the philosophical idea that everyone’s life is rich and complicated, even if we only glimpse it in passing.

Conclusion:
The episode uses "sonder" to explore the depth of human experience and the value of recognizing other people’s inner worlds. By understanding sonder, listeners are encouraged to approach daily interactions with more empathy and awareness.

Find more about sonder, the Dictionary of Obscure Sorrows, and John Koenig here: https://www.thedictionaryofobscuresorrows.com/concept/sonder

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Any views expressed on this podcast are those solely of the hosts and is for entertainment purposes only. None of the content is medical advice or financial advice.

Special thanks to Tim Wright aka CoLD SToRAGE for his permission to use the song Operatique.

Transcript

I Hate Talking: 0:29

Welcome to episode 43 of I Hate Talking. -- Hi -- everyone. How do you pronounce neologism? I don't know, I'd have to read it, but neologism. I don't know that word. And ask Well, I guess somebody. We'll see who responds. It looks like. AI has responded. Neologism neologism. There you have it. So the reason we're talking about neologism is because the word or phrase of this episode is a neologism. Is the word or phrase neologism? Cause I don't know what that is, even. Well, we may be getting to 2 or 3 words or phrases of the episode as we discuss this because neologism is not the word or phrase of the episode. We actually alluded to this in our previous episode with the fact that Perhaps one person's experience is either equivalent or not equivalent with. The experiences of others. And I mentioned that there was perhaps a non-English word that describes how. You perceive the fact that other people have experiences as in depth as your own, but it is actually not a non-English word, it is simply a neologism. So the word or phrase officially of this episode is the word sonder. Now this was coined by a gentleman named John Koning in 2012 in his blog, The Dictionary of Obscure Sorrows. And this is where we arrive at the fact that it is a Neologism. Because it does not necessarily take any etymology, it is just basically a brand new word. Now there are some possible origins that perhaps this particular gentleman and author was drawing on where there is a French word, sonder that means to probe or plum or a German word sonder that means separate or special. Or a proto-Germanic word, sundras that means separate, isolated and alone. So unsure, and he has not said, but perhaps drawing on some of those particular words in other languages, but this is used in an explicitly English work, the dictionary of obscure sorrows, the word sonder. So he created this word without any pretext. Correct, no pretext, perhaps no background. Again, the readers of his works are again theorizing that maybe he's drawing on the French or Germanic languages to come up with this new word in terms of how he is using it and defining it within his literary work. Interesting. OK. And then he just expected people to know what he meant? Or did he just uh describe it? So, he wrote the dictionary of obscure sorrows. So this basically is a new word that he is creating, and again, maybe drawing on some other languages there, but he is basically creating that and defining it himself in this literary work. So, tell me if I'm wrong. When I hear the word sunder, I think of like using it, I can't think of it without using a sentence, like he sauntered into the room. So I think you're perhaps thinking of sauntered, which would be a word used in perhaps old westerns where he sauntered into the saloon. That would be S A U N T E R. Saunter versus Sonder. -- Which is S O N D E -- R. OK. Very similar sounding, but OK. And what does this word mean? According to his obscure dictionary, self-published. Well, I don't know if it's self-published. Is it? I don't know. I guess created self-created. Well, I think any literary work is self-created, though there is probably quite a few literary works these days, even scientific research papers. That are not created by people, -- but instead by -- machines. Right, yeah, AI or like even ghostwriters and stuff, right? You can't say like self. Created when you have a ghostwriter. Well, I don't think that is the case here. This is 2012. Hopefully back when people had a little bit more. 2012? That wasn't that long ago. 2012 was 12 years ago. -- 13 years -- ago 3 years ago. That wasn't that long ago. That was the rise of AI, a lot of tools. Yeah, exactly. So you had a BlackBerry, is that BlackBerry days? That was probably BlackBerry days, yes. Maybe, maybe you had a. More advanced. This is a tangent we can get off. But I did not have a smartphone yet. So the word saunder as defined by this gentleman, John Koning in his. Hopefully self-created, probably not self-published work. Reads as follow. and this is from a screenshot from Tumblr, so hopefully they got it right. We didn't actually look up the actual book, nor do we own it, but here we go. So, Sonder, noun, the realization that each random passerby is living a life as vivid and complex as your own, populated with their own ambitions, friends, routines, worries, and inherited craziness. An epic story that continues invisibly around you like an ant hill sprawling deep underground with elaborate passageways to thousands of other lives that you'll never know existed in which you might appear only once as an extra sipping coffee in the background as a blur of traffic passing on the highway as a lighted window at dusk. I love that, so Saunder, it's my new word. How do you use it in sentence cause I really like that definition. Well, there you have it, so maybe not as, what was the word you used? Like sauntered into a room? No. Uh, I don't know what you said. Obscure? Obscure. So yes, perhaps shouldn't be as obscure as you perhaps think it is. Now, I don't think it's completely obscure. I have run into this in a couple of different Things that I've read in terms of articles or. Just things that I've seen, so it is, again, not very popular, but I have encountered this particular word on multiple occurrences. OK, just like as Uh, philosophy. I very strongly like this, and I'm drawn to this, but how would you use it? Like I can picture it in my head, but if I'm talking to somebody, What do I say? or how do you use it? So it is interesting to note that this does not appear in necessarily any official dictionaries. The first result in a quote unquote dictionary is the urban dictionary, which defines it as the realization that there aren't any main characters in the world and everyone has a complex life, thoughts, crushes, relatives, dreams, and mind, just as your own. Essentially, while you're the main character in your own life, you're also a background character in someone else's. So to use it in a sentence, as you alluded to, their example is the knowledge that both you and me are reading this and our actual people, like the other 8 billion of us, is making Sounder hit me like a truck. OK. Yeah, cause that's what I wanted to say or was thinking about was that everyone is the main character in their own story. Just by default, and then you have very close. Secondary characters like your spouse, your kids, or People you see daily or whatnot. And then you have like curser characters, and, you know, and it just continues on, right? Everybody is a main character for themselves. But isn't necessarily a main character for anyone else. Precisely, and that Sounder is the realization that that is how you perceive experience, but also at the same time, how others perceive their own experience. So, would this be an example, um, this sticks in my head. I've had similar experiences, but there's one specific incident, maybe, I don't know, 5 or 6 years ago. It sticks in my head to this day. I was at Costco. Uh, a beloved place we spend our time because for $1 50s, you get a hot dog and a soda, and that's amazing. But we were at Costco, I or I was at Costco with my kids, and they were being Awesome. So helpful getting items for me, carrying them to the cart, just being complete little gentleman. And then We were there for a longer time than normal. They were very young at the time. Uh, for some reason, I guess it was maybe a holiday, I can't really remember exactly, but the checkout was extremely long. It just took so long. It was lunchtime, they were hungry. We were gonna get the Costco Food Court food afterwards. So, I gave them my phone and was like, here, just Watch YouTube or whatnot, like Bluey or whatever it was on my phone while we waited in line. And this lady came up to me and she was extremely rude and mean about me handing my phone to my toddlers. And another lady came up and like interrupted this, and was like, you don't know. What she's been through, her kids were excellent the entire time I saw them earlier in the store and complimented her. So you need to mind your own business. And it was just like this interesting dual perspective of one lady who saw my kids at their best and complimented us. And another lady who saw us when we were about to melt down. So, obviously, in my story, I'm the main character, but in this one lady's story that judged me, I was just a little blip. She probably doesn't remember this at all, but I still remember leaving. Feeling so bad, but also thankful for that other lady who stood up for me. But I'm just a little blip in both of their radars, right? Neither of them probably remember that incident that was forever grained into my brain. So how would you word that? Is that Is that the sounder or like am I their sounder? Or am I using it wrong? So, as you sauntered through the checkout line. I don't think you experience sonder because did you consider Either of these other people's lives and perhaps that. The person that praised you is unable to have children and had to deal with that all their lives and found joy in seeing how other people's children behaved or that the fact that the other lady that was commenting on it had lost her husband to brain cancer due to cell phone usage and that was their experience in life. I thought the lady who stood up for me was super nice, and I was thankful for her. And I thought she was super brave too, cause I don't know if I would do that. And I thought the other lady was a mean old lady, that's super jaded in life. And I still feel that way. So that's something different. I don't know if I know exactly the word that that would be. Us to describe such an experience. OK, so can you give me an example then? In your life of Sonder. So I think perhaps. When I'm going through a particular struggle or difficulty or perhaps see somebody else going through a particular struggle or difficulty. That there is something that we talked about a long time ago. I think maybe even in our 1st 5 episodes when we were talking about. The How to Kill a Mockingbird, right? Walking a mile in their shoes or in their skin, as the quote may go, and that when you consider other people's experiences in light of those challenges and experiences that I would experience sonder that. When either I'm going through that challenge or struggle, that there are other people that have just as complex struggles, or when I I am aware of somebody else going through that that. A lot of people going through such things and having a very deep experience in life. Right, so how does that not, my example not sonder though? Because I'm thinking of like a commercial that's really big right now, right? It literally, I've seen it multiple times. It brings me to tears every time. And it's about, like, several clips, but there's like a little kid, it shows a little kid having a meltdown. And this lady being like, OK, let's get a treat. He, you want like a cookie? And these people are judging her, right? Like, oh, see, you need a discipline. But they didn't see and then it flashes forward like what you didn't see, and this lady was taking this foster kid in. And this is their first afternoon together. So, obviously, he's having to melt down cause he doesn't know this lady, right? And he's been in a traumatic situation. And so it's like, it's lots of experiences like that, that you judge someone, and then, but you don't know what they're doing. So, how is my example not the way it is? I'm not saying trying to fight. I'm just saying like, how is it not? Because one person judged me without knowing the circumstance. And the other person didn't. Right, but the experience that you had was focused on your own experience and the interactions that you had. You're treating yourself as the main character, whereas the person that was giving either side of the feedback, they were the main character in their own mind and they may have thought that they were giving you the best advice of their entire lives in that moment. Right, but like in that commercial, how about one lady's like, oh, you don't discipline your kids. She didn't know that that wasn't their kid. But this was a foster kid they just met a couple, like an hour beforehand. So perhaps they were not experiencing sonder because they were not considering that. You were having a particular experience that is as full and complex as their own, but you are describing your own experience as the key thing in this interaction. And that's not the point of Sonder. Sonder is the realization that other people have. Deep and complex experience that they live out in their own lives. -- So -- maybe the lady who stood up for me experienced sonder, and maybe if I thought about it and reframed it like that, instead of saying that grouchy old Mean lady If I thought, you know what, I don't know. Maybe she just got back from the hospital and her husband's there. And her kids aren't talking to her, or something like that. Like, it's that sounder then? If I reframed it instead of saying, oh, she's such a grouchy old lady. Then thinking like, oh, she must, maybe she's going through a really bad thing I don't know about. Perhaps, but I still think you're saying this from your own perspective, which is not the point. You have to look at things from other people's perspectives. You have to realize that other people have to make extremely complex decisions and Go through a variety of challenges and that they perceive that as their own. Experience as the primary thing that they experience in life and that you're, you, the other person. are just a blip within that experience. OK, so that's not a good example then because this old lady left her line to come tell me that I should not let my children be on my phone. But they were not fighting, they were not running around, they were not yelling. They were literally sitting in the cart. Watching TV. So, this is a bad example, right? Because I was not inhibiting her life at all, and she entered my life on purpose. So give me an example of Sonder in your daily life. So, I think Perhaps where I will experience this most. is within the driving experience. I think this also has to do with the fact that in the US, especially, right, or anywhere, you don't really necessarily see cars as personified things within the world. It's just a vehicle. But that if you see a person within a vehicle, perhaps that personifies them, or particularly motorcycles because you actually can see the person. In their riding gear that is. Going about their business and transporting themselves to and from, is to consider that. When dealing with traffic or having to get somewhere and being in a rush that these things are not necessarily important to me, but they are important to those people that are doing that. And on the flip side, likewise, they don't really care that I have somewhere to be. They just are concerned with where they need to be and that would sort of be. An experience of sonder because they are living their own complex life and trying to get somewhere quickly. And I'm doing the same thing, but we are completely unaware of each other because there is zero connection in that particular scenario. OK, well, going back to the commercial I referenced earlier, I had multiple clips. Another clip they share is the whole point of the commercial is like, be nice, because you don't know what someone else is going through. And there's another clip of a car driver. And the first driver is kind of swerving a little bit, definitely going too slow, like, and the person behind him is just frustrated. Like, come on, get off the road, what in the world are you doing? And then it passed, like, goes back in time and it shows that that first driver was at the hospital and his wife just passed. And so in the car, he's thinking, how am I gonna tell my kids that their mom is gone? And he's driving home to tell his children this. So, is that Sonder then that the second driver did not know that his wife was passed and he was going home to tell his children. The second driver was just going to Starbucks or just going to work or whatever. Well, perhaps these commercials are getting at the fact that we should experience sonder because it seems like in these examples that the person that is observing these odd happenings, the swerving vehicle or perhaps the Special treat that is given. does not have the full picture because they are not considering that the fact that that person is living a full and complex life with their own particular decision making and challenges and struggles. Right. And again, not trying to go back to me. I know I'm a Main character of my story, so sorry. But like, that's what I was getting at before, where that person did not know everything that had previously happened and just judged me in one second. But did you not judge them in one second as well? Well, that's my point is that you are not having a sonder because they lost somebody to cell phone usage. So I, because I Because I still judge this individual that negates my saer. Do you think that they have a full and complex life and had very conflicted decision making to make that. Interaction with you. Maybe, but I still think she's a grouchy old lady. So that's not Sondra. You don't realize that they have a full and complex life and that may have been like the hardest decision that they made of the day. Why am I going to go talk to this mom or am I just going to stay in my lane? Maybe But why wouldn't they say something when that other lady stood up for me then? They just went back to their carts. Right, like if you have like a strong belief, you could tell them, like, no, I know the stats on cell phone use, and I'm just caring for them. I feel like I'd double down if I really believe that strongly. I would like try to. Reiterate why I was doing this, not just walk away. Right, but you're again reframing that in your own experience and not the other person. OK, so that's not Sonder, these commercials are sonder. They're examples of the lack of Sonder. So when have you experienced Sonder this week? So, I don't know. Perhaps there's people out there that their mom is about to die, or perhaps there is somebody that their dishwasher and their stovetop broke in the same week. Or perhaps they're going through a significant organizational restructure at work or perhaps they have a significant repair that needs to be done to their vehicle. This all sounds like first person experience. Oh yeah, that's that's all me. But yeah, that's not funny to laugh at. The fact is that other people in the world. have to deal with those same life experiences, and they may be dealing with those exact same things just as I am, and that's Sonder and I don't know, even looking at all the things that we do within our household, the things that we do for our kids or this podcast or the fact that we take care of chickens and a dog and two cats and We have to let the faucets strip because it's cold outside. Those are varied things that we deal with in our life that are somewhat routine, but also somewhat complex and perhaps frustrating at times that other people have those exact same things that they have to deal with and maybe they forgot to rip their taps and their pipe burst. That's sonder. The realization that other people have. These extremely deep and complex lives that we ourselves have, but we consider ourselves as the primary and don't consider things that other people are experiencing. I um had a friend just today text me, side note, and she asked like, hey, tell me what's going on? And I was like, kind of what your list right there. I was like, how much do you want to know? Because I can really start complaining. So she was very kind to hear me. List everything out. Do you ever feel that desire to tell someone, especially a stranger? Or someone you know, like. This is what I'm going through, back off. No, never. I don't think that has been part of my experience as an introvert. I will just withdraw. I don't need to like scare them with the reality of my life. But do you feel like any need for them to know or justified in like your actions because of X, Y, and Z? I do not. Would you feel validated if they knew, or would that not validate you or impact you positively or negatively if someone knew what you're going through? I suppose some of it maybe is a pride issue where I don't want them to give me any particular grace per se. Because I still should be able to do what I need to do in life, no matter what. Interesting. So for me, I feel like, I mean, I don't have it necessarily, but I feel also like I want to do things well, and if you know how hard things are right now, and I'm doing things well, then like, give me a pat on the back. No, I do not empathize with that, which I guess is what we're getting at is that empathy is important and perhaps sonder is one way that you can achieve that is worth considering and realizing that all other people have a particular complex life experience. And perhaps they experience that life in a different way and have different desires such as being validated or being Just left alone. Would you rather be validated or ignored? Well, I think that's pretty clear from my previous statements that I would just be rather ignored. Always in every circumstance. Nearly every circumstance. Hm. Just thinking about it. You're thinking about it. So, when I feel the desire to validate you on things, should I not? And I can just reframe it to validate myself, cause I have that strong desire for validation. Like, instead of validating you for your hard day work, I can say, Stephanie, your husband had a hard day. You were so great supporting him. Good job. Instead of saying, hon, that was tough. See, I don't think, I think that. The A Thing that you're considering Is the Experience the challenge. I do not want to be validated that I did a good job. In spite of the challenge, I just want to be validated that I did a good job. I do not care that it was challenging to do the good job. Maybe it wasn't challenging to do the good job. The circumstance is less important to me. The outcome and the actual results are important to me. Interesting. I don't think I agree. Well, clearly, I think we've already established that. Yes, I love validation, but no, what I'm saying is, like, as a teacher for our kiddos and stuff, one thing I tell them all the time. I'm impressed if you get Uh 80 On this, wanna say Nick that's challenging. So I don't care. So I think I do disagree. I don't care. About the outcome necessarily. I care that you gave it your best. You could do the easiest thing possible and do amazing at it. Or you could really challenge yourself and struggle. But you completed it, and so you did the hard thing, and I'm proud of you for that. I suppose so, but in the real world, your best may not be good enough. Right, but you still were challenged. Yeah, but maybe you're utter failure at something that you attempted and you didn't achieve the desired outcome. Just because you did your best and you had an extremely bad outcome does not mean that you deserve validation. Maybe or you tried your best. And maybe you're just like, hey, I'm not a good artist, and I really tried on that paint scene. And it's just not for me. Yeah, if you learn from that experience and move on and you know that you're not gonna be a famous painter, then yeah, that experience can be for your own benefit. But if you continually try to paint a masterpiece and you continually fail because you do not have that skill. And You think that just because you're doing your best. That that that will be enough. Perhaps it is not. Or you don't try at all because you're like, oh, that's too hard. But I know I'm really good at coding, so I'll take this coding class instead of this painting class, and I'll ace the coding. Well, there you go, do what you're good at. I, I think that's a very relevant takeaway. I disagree. I think. You really need to stretch yourself and try and It takes a lot of bravery to do something that you're not good at. Or it takes a lot of bravery to try something. It's different or hard. It's, it's not a lot of bravery to do something that's easy. That's true, and I'm not discounting the fact that you should not try difficult things, can expand your horizons and gain more skills. Right I'm pointing specifically at the fact that if you are trying to do something over and over again, failing and just, just saying that it's OK because you're trying your best that that is probably not acceptable. Yeah, I can agree with that, cause I think that hopefully there'd be, even if you are failing, there's still a trend line upward, you're still improving, you're still getting better. It's not OK to be like stagnant and just be like, oh, I'm Trying, you know, like to try, you actually have to have some kind of a bird at some point, movement. I would say so. Or you're just better than the average person and And you can be successful. I don't, I still. I still want people to know everything going on in my life, so. They can be like, oh, that's tough. Good for you. Let me give you a hug. Do you have that same desire to understand that about their other people's lives? Yeah, I think so. Mostly. Um, and sometimes in a selfish way, people that seem to have it together, I'm like, tell me your Deepest, darkest secrets, cause I know there's something that you're struggling with. There's no way you have Life figured out as good as you do, and I want to know about your struggles. Well, there you go, you realize that people have deep complex lives and their own struggles and that perhaps you want to seek that out so that you can empathize and support them. So surprised we made it back to that topic because I felt like we're going way off track, but I guess we brought it back, so this is probably a good spot to And our podcast and perhaps consider that there are other people out there ending their podcast right now as well, and they are probably ending with a Request to their listeners to like and subscribe. That's probably what they're doing in their lives as they live out their lives separate from our lives. So, from your friends that I hate talking until next time, remember, it is only through talking that we begin the journey to understanding.