Troth, Social Contracts, When To Quit, and more

 We begin with a word related to the topic in mind: troth. We discuss the etymology and related words, and discuss our thoughts on commitments, truth, and declarations.

Then we delve into how much commitment you need to have things, when is a good time to quit, and the social pressure put on us by unspoken contracts.

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Any views expressed on this podcast are those solely of the hosts and is for entertainment purposes only. None of the content is medical advice or financial advice.

Special thanks to Tim Wright aka CoLD SToRAGE for his permission to use the song Operatique.

Transcript

I Hate Talking: 0:29

Welcome to episode 51 of I Hate Talking. Hi everyone. Now some people have asked us why there was no particular fanfare about episode 50, and I guess it really wasn't. We sort of just did episode 50. It was a relatively short episode, that particular episode, and I don't even think we made reference to the fact that it was the 50th episode, but I guess in a society that has 10 fingers, 50 would be a significant number. Yeah, and when you mentioned it, I remember thinking, wow, that's pretty awesome, but I also was sick and didn't have the energy level to throw a party for it. That's true. And I think probably around this time, the annual celebration would be more impactful than just 50. Yeah, we're coming up on a year. We are coming up on a year, which I don't understand because I think on episode 52, we're going to not be a year, but I don't know if that's because of the leap year or maybe we just had some extra episodes that we did. I don't know. I don't quite understand. How we would be in April when we started in May and we've already. And 52 plus episodes in. Well, we had a couple of bonus episodes. Did those count too in the numbers? They count, yeah. OK. So that must be why. So. I guess the big takeaway on all this is that you can count things a lot of different ways and in the end, maybe none of it really matters. So we are on episode 51 now. Congratulations to us. And we will, as always, have a word or phrase of the episode and that word or phrase of the episode is. Truth Troth? Yeah, do you know the word troth? T R O T H. Yes. So, I do not know that word, but there is a similar word. That comes to mind that probably is the same root word, which is betroth. Which is an archaic word that would be used in some sense of like an engagement. So like if a particular person asked for a lady's hand in marriage, they would become engaged or in the archaic sense, they would become betrothed. I think that probably would be even the word used in the King James version of the Bible to maybe described Joseph and Mary. So I would Guess that troth is some sort of promise or commitment that when you become betrothed, you are. Doing some sort of promise or making some. Declaration of commitment. Yeah, I'll let you look up in a moment the etymology of it. But yeah, you're on the right path. It is both a noun and a verb. And so it could be used as a noun, like as in a promise. By my troth, I will not trespass on your precious property. Kind of idea, it could be an allegiance, as in like the knight pledge, his eternal troth to the defense of the kingdom. A commitment, like you said, I troth myself eternally to your service. Oh, it's a verb. So as a verb, it could be used as like in a commitment. Also, am I pronouncing it properly because I feel like, yeah, no, that's the A with the ah sound troth. Well, yeah, -- I guess you could hit the hit the button -- this is a rough. We've been pronouncing it wrong. I think it's rough. That does seem to be what the pronunciation guide and even some of the. Pronunciation Things that we've listened to indicate that it's actually troth. But it is the same word, um. Betroth is part of rough. So is all of our modern day usage of the troth the wrong pronunciation? I don't know. Seems like it. I guess we need to look up why that's pronounced differently. So, as you indicated, we are going to talk about the etymology of this word and it's actually interesting to note that betrothed, which we were indicating would be maybe some of the language that would be used to describe Mary and Joseph, actually did not originate from this word troth, but that they actually became Used together later in the modern day and perhaps Middle English or English, but. That the original origin of betroth came from the English B or basically be something, and the English truth, so you would be truth someone, so you would make a positive statement about somebody or again, perhaps some sort of form of commitment, but you're basically declaring something to be true. So you are betrothed to that person. Whereas roth actually comes from a different etymology, but then that would be truth. Or betroth became to be used with that troth and became the modern day, or I guess in this case, somewhat archaic because I don't think that word betroth is used very frequently. No, but that is very complicated to be throwing betrothed and froth back and forth. It's hard to follow. But they both do mean. Truth or loyalty and all that, right? Cause when I'm looking up troth, betroth is under it. Even though it didn't come from it originally. Yeah, it's actually probably some form of overlap actually in the English and the Germanic where actually had a very similar word for truth, but that the word troth actually probably originates from a proto-Germanic root. Which I can't even begin to pronounce, but it basically means contract or promise. And that is A very similar word. With the word truth, and then that became used to be betrothed. So I think there was maybe even again as we've alluded to in some previous episodes, some unintentional overlap of languages and words where people were maybe even using the wrong word and it became interpreted as the correct word and then you just have all this mixing of the words and languages. There you go. So, at the core though, It does mean. Some sort of contract or promise and that would be true of both the proto-Germanic as well as how it became to be used in the Old English, Middle English and now perhaps somewhat archaic English. So we have the word troth as our word or phrase of the episode, but. As we've discussed a lot of interesting connections to. Betroth and some of the proto-Germanic words and the overlap between German and English. Yeah. So, the reason I looked up that word and wanted to know more about it was because I've been thinking a lot about Loyalty lately and faithfulness and just like. When, if ever, is it a good time to quit something? Whether it's a bad habit, Or A situation or a. TV show, it could, you know, be from Well, are you gonna quit the podcast? -- Is that what you're -- saying? OK, so this is my time. I'm telling you now. No, I'm not. That is not, this is not trying to announce that to you and to others that I'm quitting the podcast, but just when are good times to quit something? Or is there ever a good time to quit something? And is the criteria always the same? Well, I think the criteria will vary greatly based on what or who it is that you're quitting because I think that in some ways the word betrothed will indicate that you are aligning yourself to a particular person. So you are committing yourself to that particular person and declaring that you are. Basically aligned with them or creating an allegiance with them or some form of commitment and then that would create a contract of fidelity in some form or fashion. So if you make that promise, and it is a particular relationship with a person, and obviously I'm alluding to marriage if it's not clear by now that that would be something that you would not quit. And that would be something that. Again, the betrothed word I think is associated with the engagement, the declaration that you are going to commit yourself to this person and then you follow through with marriage and so on and so forth, that that is a lifetime commitment and then therefore you would not quit that per se. Now, obviously there's various levels of commitment. You might have a job or a Social club or a church that you are particularly associated with and in some form or fashion, there will be an allegiance, quote unquote, or some form of rough in terms of the declaration of some form of contract with that said organization. Yeah, and it even goes to, you know, things like sports, right? Or different clothing companies, people can have an allegiance. And a strong pull towards those. And perhaps that's part of the complexity is that in some of those things that you described, whether it be a sports organization or some sort of social club, there is really not necessarily a written contract per se. There's not like you're signing your name on the dotted line that you're going to serve in this position for 2 years and And so on and so forth. Now there may be instances where that is the case, but I think in a lot of the scenarios that you describe some of those examples, it's more of a social contract and not necessarily an explicit contract, but nonetheless, there is some form of troth mixed in there. Do you think that you need to sign something to make it a real allegiance? No, I do not think you need to sign something that you to make it a real allegiance, but That at least holds the parties accountable. If they do break that allegiance. Right, and some states, like a verbal contract counts, right? But not in all states and not, probably doesn't hold up as well in like, The core or something, right? Precisely, yeah, you can have a verbal agreement and that will be, again, as you indicated, recognized by certain states and not others, but in some instances, it will be just their word against your word and if you don't have anything written down, there may be difficulty in proving. What the particulars of that contract are. So what are some things that you Feel like you are. you would Give allegiance to, so give troph to. Is that how you say it? Give troph? that you would be troph to? No. Well, it's a noun and a verb, so you could I guess you could act in a trothful manner, or there could be an actual troth, which I guess as a noun would be perhaps another synonym would be just commitment or some kind of contract to use it in the literal sense. OK. So, what are some things that you would So I think in terms of the noun thing, there's probably some contracts that I would be under in that, like I work for a company that has, you know, some form of particular expectation on my performance and behavior and I'm married, so obviously you have some form of expectation in maintaining our marriage contract as it were. I don't know if I really would categorize any of the other things as really rough because there's in that, I feel there's like a very strong. Aspect of fidelity, like if you depart from that, then. You are infidelities and. That would be negatively looked upon. Whereas a lot of the other things that I'm involved in are more of social contracts and it's more of just the expectation. There's not really necessarily a particular commitment or contract or a form of fidelity where if I break that, that it's like. Really, really bad. So do you think in your opinion that Troth is subjective? Well, I guess the definitions subjective, but how I'm defining the word, I see it as more of an issue of Particular contract and if you break that contract, An issue of fidelity. OK. So I think some of the things with like. As an example, scouts, right? As I serve within that in a leadership position, there's not necessarily a particular written contract nor is there. A huge burden of expectation that I fulfill that role for a certain period of time. Like I am fulfilling the role and the role that I have within Scouts, but. If I departed from that. It may be more of an issue if I like went to a. Competitor of scouts, but like if I just needed a break, I don't feel like that would be necessarily an issue of rough. So if you went to like trail life, that's not a competitor, but like a similar thing, or you started your own scouts and you were like, hey everyone, come join my club instead. Yeah, but I did not have any particular. Betrothment to scouts that would prevent me from doing that, I don't think. So you listed the big things overarching work, marriage, yada yada. But what about like companies? loyal name brands or anything like that. Do you feel allegiance to any brands? As a consumer? Yeah. I do, but I feel like that is more because of the quality that I receive from those brands and therefore I will be somewhat of a proponent of those brands, but I have no social contract nor contract at all unless say somebody wants to sponsor us perhaps that I have to speak in a particular way about those brands, so I don't really. Would have any issue of switching, so. I do enjoy a lot of Adidas products, but if I found that to be. An issue in the future and switch to Nike, then it would not really be that big of a deal. And there's maybe a little bit of troth in that and maybe like a very wide definition of the word in terms of some sort of commitment that is then changing, that that would be very, very far on the other end of the spectrum versus what those things that I've already mentioned are. OK, so then in your definition of trough, in your opinion of it. There would not be a time or there'd be a significant Issue with breaking the trough. I think so, and Part of the issue with even saying that you could break troth would be. The time-bound component of it because a lot of contracts are not necessarily time-bound, even in social contracts. So you do something, it's maybe for The foreseeable future, but it's not really. A particular time period. Now there are some things where, you know, you're going to serve in this role for 2 years or 4 years or things of that nature or a lifetime, but I think in most instances, a lot of the things that we engage with that we commit to are not necessarily time bound. At all. OK. So what are some of the things that you are betrothed to or would consider troth in your life? Yeah, I think I took it different. I could see how you took it very literal, because yes, I agree like I've got my marriage. And there's some social and religious clubs that I did sign that I would attend or do certain tasks for. Not like they necessarily would be legal ramifications or whatnot, but I did make a commitment to serve or whatnot in these groups. Um So I think those, but then, yeah, I also think about like. Can I say coffee? Like I don't think coffee is. In any way gonna Dislike you if you switch to tea. Coffee is not a, it doesn't have to like you, but like, it's hard to even picture a day without coffee, and the times that I have to, it's very difficult. So, I just think like that is something that like. I'm committed to my cup of coffee every day. Yes, I understand they're not committed, right? There's no contract. You didn't contact the coffee bean and say, I'm going to grind you up and drink you. I haven't had that in years. And then if the, well, I just mean literally like the coffee bean meant coffee shop. It's like, wow, that's a blast from the past, but you don't have a contract in any form or fashion with The coffee itself. No, and I'm, I can switch coffee, like some people only will drink Coke. And refuse Pepsi. I go back and forth, I don't care. Right. So, yes, perhaps I'm using it in more of a literal sense, but again, even as it's used in the English with betrothed, that there's some form of promise or contract or declaration. That you would then change in the future and that would actually Void or break your trough. So what about like the pledge of allegiance to the flag? We say that every week. That's basically the same right thing, right? We're not signing something. We didn't sign something to be in America. Because we were born here. I mean, if you move here later, you do, I think, right? But We didn't because we were born here. But we still say that basically that we are. Pledging allegiance where trothing trothing is not a word, right? I doubt it. I have a hard time when it's a noun and a verb to go back and forth, to use it properly. Well, any verb can be modified to an adverb, so you can do things in a trothy manner, -- I -- suppose. There you go, OK. And that is true, right? I would categorize that. In some form or fashion of troth, if you are making a declaration that you are then. Indicating some form of troth to the flag and the nation over which it flies, but, and you do get up earlier than me in some cases, but I've never seen you like pledge to coffee. Like I pledge allegiance to coffee and I only drink Starbucks and so on and so forth. No, but I do occasionally sigh and thank the Lord for it. I'm like, ah, I love you. Well, that is probably a different word than troth. So, Yeah, I think there's some form of declaration, commitment, promise embedded in the word troth that will not necessarily be present for the things that you consume or enjoy or prefer. OK. So I think we've probably defined hopefully pretty well, rough and some of the things that it may indicate, but I think the thing that you were trying to get to is when is it OK or socially acceptable or just acceptable in general to break that commitment. Right, yeah. I think it all goes back to the emphasis of the original commitment itself that if it's something very significant, like a marriage commitment or in some ways a work contract that those will be significant and will have significant ramifications if you break or abdicate the responsibility in fulfilling that rough, but that pretty much everything else, I think. It is more of a social contract and it's more of just expectations in terms of what you are doing. So, in a social club or a volunteer organization or a religious organization that There's Probably more. Societal, cultural influence that is driving you to fulfill certain duties than an actual particular declaration of commitment. In other words, the people around you influence you to do and behave a certain way rather than a particular written contract. OK. And do you that applies to you? Because I feel like Obviously for big stuff, I'm very committed, but for coffee or for an event, I'm much quicker than you are. To say this isn't working for us. We do not need to do it any longer. Like we, as an example, as a family, we started doing this nighttime workout routine. The whole family, we all do it together and it's fun. Everyone's enjoying it right now. But I would be OK in a couple months if it Life gets busy, or it's just not fun anymore, or we're not seeing benefits. I'd be much quicker to say, ah, let's not do it. Let's find something else to do at night. I think you're like, we're committed to this. routine, we're gonna stick with it. That is true. I think that I will lean more towards a sustainment role than a starter role, which is probably something we can get into another episode because I feel like it could be a whole topic in itself because there's people that start things and there's people that sustain things. You probably fall more on the starter side and I would fall more on the sustainer side. So my perspective is if it's good enough to start, you should keep doing it. And that if you stop doing something that you probably should replace it with something else. some way so that you are not just. Stopping something altogether. And I think if there is a. External influence that you are providing with whatever that you are doing that. There is a particular expectation from the parties involved that they expect you to behave in a certain manner, and if that changes that will impact them. So just trying to be considerate and consistent for their sake. Right, yes. Yeah, and I think especially if there is, uh, say in that's through the summer or through the school year. I would push to continue with those till that obligation was met. Cause you don't want to leave the rest of your team. High and dry But then I'd say, OK, once that ends, now we're done. Once that cycle is over. Once you finished reading that book, you don't have to do the book club anymore, or something like that. I'd be much quicker to say it doesn't serve us anymore, so let's finish that book. Do the book club And then step back. Or I think you would like to keep going with the next book in the list. That is true, yeah, you sustain the particular pattern and routine until. I guess it doesn't work or until something better comes along, but yeah, I would have a higher preponderance to. Try to follow that routine and preserve the normal process that has already been established. Do you think our kids fall towards me or you more as the starter or the sustainer? I think when they were younger, they would probably fall either way. I feel like as they get older, they probably lean more towards the consistency and therefore the sustainer personality. Yeah, I feel like most of them do, and that is hard for me. I think we make a good team because I can start things, like get ideas, and then you carry it out. And that's super helpful. It is hard to always be consistent when I don't see benefits. I'm like, let's try this instead now, but I see their desire for the consistency. And the sustainability. Exactly. So perhaps that's our big takeaway for this episode is that in all these things, social contracts or things that you start and try. And things that you participate in that perhaps there should be some form of time-bound contract in these things that they should not be open ended and you're just expected to perform in a certain way forever is that there needs to be some form of Contract expiration date. That's a good idea, yeah. So, from your friends at I hate talking, until next time, remember, it is only through talking that we begin the journey to understanding.