"Argue Less, Talk More" A Discusion on Conversation

 We delve into a word related to the recent book titled "The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More" by Jefferson Fisher. That word is "pause".

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You can find that book on Amazon or wherever you buy books.

We then discuss a variety of topics related to talking as well as pausing in conversations. Is this just a strategy or does pausing during conversations provide real value when communicating with others?

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Any views expressed on this podcast are those solely of the hosts and is for entertainment purposes only. None of the content is medical advice or financial advice.

Special thanks to Tim Wright aka CoLD SToRAGE for his permission to use the song Operatique.

Transcript

I Hate Talking: 0:29

Welcome to episode 53 of I Hate Talking. Hi everyone. Now before we get started, we did solve the mystery of how we had more than 52 episodes prior to our year mark. Oh, how? Well, if you were a first time listener when our podcast launched, you may recall that on our very first day of release, we actually released 5 episodes. Yeah. So we have 4 extra episodes in our yearly routine of dropping a quote unquote official episode number each week and as I mentioned last time, there are some bonus episodes, but those are typically categorized under bonus content of the main episode. So that is where those 4 extra episodes came from. That's crazy. How did we forget that? I don't know, but we did not actually hear back from any listeners, so either they did not care that much or they were perplexed as well. But we do the research for you on I hate Talking. So now that question has been answered. Likewise, we do the research when it comes to our word or phrase of the episode, and that word or phrase of the episode for this episode is. Pause or pauses. Pause, like you pause the game or you pause the TV show? Uh, yeah, that could be an example. Well, I guess it maybe fits in with our last two episodes, so it'll be interesting to see where this word takes us or how it might relate to the topic for this particular episode because we're talking about starting things or sustaining things or closing things. So perhaps maybe you put something on pause, you take a temporary break from whatever you are doing or watching or listening to. And then later you can resume that by pushing play in the modern lexicon when you're talking about resuming some form of content, whether that be a podcast or TV show or audiobook or whatever the case may be. So, that is really the only thing that comes to my mind when you use the word pause or pauses is that it relates more to modern technology and the fact that you can stop something. But then we'll resume that at a later time. Yeah, and uh similar to our our word recently where it was both, this one's both a verb and a noun. And yeah, I think you're kind of on the right path where pause means to hesitate, and if you use it as a verb, it could be to come to a temporary halt in one's activity, as in he paused for a moment to regain his composure. Or a noun, as in a lull, a momentary halt in a moment, like there was a brief pause. For an applause on his speech. And this comes from Merriam-Webster. Well, there you have it, and I think that it does adequately describe some of the things that I was talking about in terms of it being temporary or momentarily that it is not stopping something because that would, I think, have more of an emphasis on the fact that it will not resume, but pausing something is just temporary in nature and you will resume it at some point. Are you able to come up, find where it originated? So it comes from the Greek, comes from the word Paa, again, probably not pronouncing that Greek word exactly correct, but it means literally to stop. It is also looks like it was maybe had some etymology in Latin as well, where the word pausa is used, uh, but it seems like Greek would have been the original etymology and maybe had some crossover between Greek and Latin. And then that came to be used as pause in the late Middle English. I'm not immediately finding anything that really describes the fact that it is temporary or momentarily in nature from the etymology, but That is the etymology, both Greek and Latin roots before being used in Middle English. OK. So, the reason I was learning about this word and thinking about it this week, is because I'm reading a new book. And um I feel like it's kind of all the rage right now. I definitely recommend it even People I know that don't, quote unquote, like influencers, they don't endorse influencers, have even said, OK, this is a good book, you should read it. It's by Jefferson Fisher. He is an attorney by trade. And I started talking on like TikTok, got really popular. And uh he's written a book now, and it's called The Next Conversation. Are you less, talk more. It's really interesting, um, and maybe another time we can like deep dive that book. It's an easy book if you're listening, especially like I am on Audible. I'm intentionally pausing the book, because even though it's very easy to listen, I want to really reflect and take in versus just mass to consume information. So the part I've been listening to the last couple days. Talks about pauses and in conversations, the importance of having a pause. And the different types of pauses. That you can have in a conversation, what they may mean to the person you're talking to, and how they can impact the conversation. So do you wanna, you haven't read the book, so would you like to hear and talk about? So two things, I guess. One is that a pause in speech is definitely an applicable definition of the word pause that you can use pauses in Your speech to make an emphasis or particular point or wait for a response. So I do think that is a very apt word to use in terms of that particular Strategy for talking. And then the subtitle again of the book, it's argue Less and Talk More, is that the subtitle? Yes, argue less, hack more. Yeah, I guess Right off the bat, I might have a little bit. Of a. Hesitancy about the subtitle, cause in an argument, most times it will. Include talking. So I feel like argument is or arguing is a subcategory of talking. And that there could have been maybe a Better word than talk used there. Now, this is very nitpicky, but you did sort of just, as you said, sort of ask for my reaction to what you described the book to be, and that was one particular thing that sort of just made me pause and consider that. And to your point, I have not read the book. No, really nothing about it, had not even heard of it until you brought it to my attention, but that those are some of my initial reactions. Yeah, I get that. And again, um, I'm not all the way through the book, so I may not be correct in this. But I'm thinking to your point, what he means is when you argue, he's often talking about how your body is reacting. And getting like worked up, your fight and flight is taking action. So instead of letting those kind of physiological things happen, Controlling it and talking versus letting your physiology respond. Yes, I think that's a very useful thing then in that particular description that you've given. So, maybe it would be argue less converse more, converse sort of maybe having a little bit more emphasis in Nuance that it's actually sort of the exchange of ideas and thoughts that it's not just talking because I think talk can be cheap and sometimes people hate talking, but when you are actually conversing with that free exchange of ideas and thoughts, I think perhaps maybe that's what the author is going for. Yeah, I agree. I also just think uh giving him the benefit of a doubt. That using the word argue in a subtitle is gonna get somebody interested cause they're gonna say, oh, we fight maybe, and think of it that way, like, I fight with my spouse. And then talk is just a more layman's term than converse. I might put a a typical person off, then that sounds very educational or very academic. Precisely. So tell us more about the book and what makes it so interesting. OK. Well, this is just a section of the book, and maybe we can talk more about it. I have been taking notes, but the part for pausing that applies is he's talking about the difference in a pause, and he's suggesting that when you're talking, that you should often take a 1 to 4 2nd pause before answering. And analogy he uses is it helps think about it, like when you're reading something. If you put on reading glasses, you can see it clear. If you take that moment to put them on. If you pause to answer a question. Again, he's an attorney, so he's very used to this back and forth, right, of a conversation in the courtroom. Or in debt positions and such. So he's saying, like, take a second, just like, That's 4 seconds right there, and it builds anticipation. And it kind of gets your brain focusing on exactly what you wanna say. Cause that sounds better than the filler words of like, So then I, you know, went to the store. Instead, I can say Well, then I went to the store. Or I guess that would be Then I went to the store. Like his argument is which one of those would sound more confident or true. Yes, I guess the, I went to the store would feel. More confident and probably then interpreted as more true because people aren't necessarily. Just starting talking immediately and they are searching for the words to say. I think there's also the aspect of just communication strategy in general, that if you do have good communication that you are not going to be explicitly, majority of the time thinking of the exact response that you will be giving in terms of responding to. Somebody's thoughts or feelings as they describe them with words or if they are asking a question that you're actually using that brain capacity as they're speaking to truly understand what they are saying. And then using that pause to give the response because then at that point in time, you are thinking about how you will respond. It's not that you're thinking of your response and not paying entire attention to what the person is saying on the other side of the conversation. Yeah, exactly. I think so. So do you want to practice? Cause I wanna practice this. Like, why don't you ask me a question. And we can do it back and forth. I can answer, I often answer right off the tip of my tongue. And man, I get myself in trouble sometimes. So, do you want to do a practice? You can ask me something and I will. Do both versions. Yes, before we do that, the other thing that I think may be a little bit of a bias because he is an attorney and we see this in the courtroom, is that I wonder if he is a little bit biased in terms of either how he perceives people's responses or even that he is. Suggesting that people pause in order to look more thoughtful or to look more composed or to look more confident or truthful and that this might actually be a coaching tactic that he would use for his witnesses or his people that he's defending or prosecuting or whatever the case may be so that. It appears that the person is more knowledgeable or truthful because they are doing some of these things that may be psychologically interpreted by the people that they are talking to as more confident and truthful when really it is simply that, a strategy and it is not changing anything necessarily about the content of what people are saying. Very astute. Yes, he, uh, two things on that you said. When he first started the book, he does preface with, I'm an attorney. This is just what I've learned in my experience as one. I am not a communication specialist or psychologist. He even specifically says, if what I'm saying is wrong compared to what they say, don't listen to me. You know, and he's just like, this is just what I've learned from doing this work. So he does preface that and then also, he does explicitly say, I tell my clients to do these things. So, you're right, it is definitely a tactic. And later on, we can go if there's time allows. There's other versions of pausing that He goes into. So this is just the first one. But um. I feel like in the past, often if someone pauses too long, I feel like when they're not intelligent enough. Or 2, they're lying and coming up with a lie. So I think that's why I instinctively react quickly, to show I'm not lying and coming up with a falsehood. But he kind of persuaded me that just that couple seconds. It is good. I do think it is probably good and. Perhaps there is some. Value and just even reflecting on the responses and like the example that you gave before where perhaps somebody is using some filler words like ah or um or so and like and some of those things that are used just to fill space. That don't really add any particular extra value or sometimes actually do detract from the value of the response. So I do think that If a person is. Responding to a question or. Taking part in a conversation and giving their point of view in terms of a statement that was just presented from the other side of the party that's conversing. That there is perhaps some usefulness in avoiding those filler words and just taking time to quietly reflect and respond accordingly. But I also think that culturally just in conversation, that there is some aspect of using those filler words. To actually give a form of communication to the other party that they are engaged in the conversation and thinking of a response and not necessarily just often their own head thinking of something else and maybe have lost the entire concentration on the conversation. At hand. So again, we're no different than the particular author. These are just some things that we observe. We're not trained communication specialists or things of that nature, though we have studied it, I guess. But a lot of these things are based on just our observations of our own conversations and our own world experiences as it relates to arguing or conversing with others. And I imagine he studied probably as many courses in college or whatnot that we did. Given his profession and ours. As you're talking, it reminds me of our really bad habit you and I have. Often you'll say something and I won't be ready to talk yet, cause maybe I'm doing something else. Maybe I'm listening to an audiobook, or whatnot. And so my instinct is to say, what? And as I'm like processing what you're saying, and I'm either processing what you're saying back, cause I wasn't ready to listen, or I generally didn't hear you, and I get really frustrated cause you just wait. And I'm like, what? What? And you're oh, I thought you were thinking. I'm like, no, just tell me what you said. That is true. I usually wait until the 2nd what to repeat myself because oftentimes, and you've sometimes denied it, but then I've explicitly shown you examples where you do this exact thing and say what as that filler word and then come back with your response or maybe because you were processing what was being said. Right. So that is definitely something we need to work on. I don't have a clear answer cause I know it's an instinctive what? What? And I wonder how often I do it to other people, or if it's just me and you kind of thing. I feel like it's probably more just me and you cause we interact a lot more while I'm distracted. Where if I'm with somebody else, I'm often only there for a short period of time or for explicit purpose. So I'm giving them my full attention, where you and I come and go throughout the house or whatnot. And so I'm not always ready to give my 100% attention. Correct and it's probably a deficiency, some in my own behavior as well, because I think I will apply some of my own personal experience in terms of how other people experience the world where I'm hearing a lot of what is going on around me and don't necessarily turn my full attention on a particular thing at hand. Or not even be capable to filter out some of the other things around me going on and I will be listening to multiple conversations or multiple inputs at the same time and that's actually something that I think even is a struggle in social settings when there's multiple conversations going on. I actually find it quite difficult to focus on one single conversation when there is very Adjacent conversations happening at the same time that I will actually be listening to all of those things happening at the same time. The point here is that I will assume other people are doing the same thing because that is how I experience life, but that is not really the case because you may be, like you said, entirely focused on a podcast or what one of the kids is working on or something of that nature. You're not just listening for other audible inputs in terms of things that Desire or need your attention. No. The other thing it reminds me of is the show How I Met Your Mother with a particular episode where they counted how many but ums there were because I think you do that too, and maybe we could count in this episode if we don't edit them out, how many happened because I think in some cases we do edit those out. And it will be interesting editing this episode because we've used so many. Pauses and some of our editing software will automatically remove those gaps. So I wonder if we'll actually have to remove some of those edits -- so that the pauses are present -- because we're intentionally like explaining or showing how to pause. Correct. And our audio doesn't know that. Yeah, that's interesting. Yes, but um It's definitely a bad habit, and I do like How I Met Your Mother in that episode. Precisely. I think actually podcasting has made me more aware of my filler words from the start. And maybe that's because I'm the one that's doing some of the final edits that I will actually know where those happen and cut some of those out so that it's not so jarring for you, our listeners. Can you just leave mine in. No, I, I will. Now some of them are difficult to remove because you will sort of flow from the um into your next word. So, some of them have to stay, otherwise it would be a hard cut. OK. So perhaps that is something that, again, from this podcast or just from this author in particular, is not necessarily the value of the pauses, but the specific strategy to avoid filler words. Mhm. Hey, do you wanna know the next thing, he says. Sure, I guess at some point I will have to read this book, but I have not. Yeah, no, I want you to. I keep telling you to do it. I mean, keep telling you, I only came out, I think 1 week ago or 2 weeks ago. So, it's not like you're dragging your feet. No, I suppose not. So what is the next thing that he says? He talks about the next kind of pause is a longer one, and it's more, if the first one is like 1 to 4 seconds, this one would be more like 5 to 10 seconds. And I don't know if we want to show that on a podcast, cause I feel like people will literally look at their phone to see if it glitched or Lost internet. If we demonstrated what a 5 to 12th pause was it would definitely get removed by our editing software, I'm sure. So we would have to delete that edit that ads, but. I guess they have fair warning that we are going to do this, so your computer is not glitching. Do not look at your phone to see if you've lost internet connection. But this is 10 seconds of silence starting now. That feels like a long time, I think. Did you even wait the whole 10? -- That was -- a whole 10. Yes. OK, that's a long time. Maybe 9.5. I didn't have my stopwatch running. That was just a timer, so it wasn't down into the milliseconds, but it is definitely -- between 9 and 10 -- seconds. Yeah, it's uncomfortable and hard. So, On this completely side note, it reminds me of The Office, as we were talking about how I Met Your Mother. Also, another great show is The Office. I think it was 17 seconds, maybe, that they had silence in their first or second season with Jim and Pam, when he says he likes her. They just let it play. And there was like this whole discussion over it, that's too long, that's never been that long of silence before on the air. You can't do that. They just powered through like we're gonna do it. And it's not uncomfortable necessarily in the show, because you can see their faces, and you just like, feel that tension build when she's waiting to hear if she loves him back or not. It was like the longest time, I think it was 17 seconds, so that's almost double what we just did. And that was really long. That is true. I think in the. High-paced environment that we live in today that that is a long time that if you are watching a TV show or listening to a podcast or listening to an audiobook that those things will not exist and perhaps are edited out on purpose if they I happenstance actually do get into the recording. Right, so the point that Jefferson is making for that long of a pause is that it becomes a reflection that first, you also have a lot of time to think about your answer. But the person asking the question. Or say in the statement. It's gonna make them stop. And think about what they said. And makes them reflect, like look in a mirror and think about, is that true what I said? Did I misspeak? What was wrong? So, it's actually like a tactic to make them. I mean, he didn't say more insecure, but basically, like make them start thinking. It kind of gives you almost an upper hand of like a power move, if. And not his words, mine. Well that is interesting because that is where my thoughts went immediately when you're describing the long pause is that whoever is delivering a particular statement or question. That then is followed by the 12th pause in a debate or argument, I would consider that as like a win because you just had a mic drop statement or a particular question that has stymied the other party in this conversation, argument or debate and then you do have, as you said, your words, power, move or the upper hand in this particular conversation and I would not. I don't think unless it was maybe a very emotionally charged conversation, really even think about what I had said, I would actually go the other direction and this would actually be more argumentative in a way. Interesting. OK. I mean, it's interesting to be here, like, if it's our different personalities, like maybe I have a more similar personality to Jefferson, because when there is a silence, an awkward silence, I'd think of it as, or anything, I do start instantly reflecting on what I said. Um, and maybe I misspoke or whatnot. Uh, I think it's interesting that you would come back with more of like a confidence, like, ha, I got them. Right. I did consider how you were describing that it may be reflective for the party that just delivered a statement or a question that they would sort of think if they said something wrong or said something out of turn, that is not the primary thought that I had. My primary thought was that Whatever statement or question. Was just delivered was so powerful that it has stopped the other party in their tracks. And maybe part of it is what the person says, he didn't say this, I don't believe, but maybe it's what you respond with. Cause if you take that long pause and then you start stuttering. And speaking timidly. Without confidence, then I could see that being like, huh, I definitely got them, they're super rattled. But if you take that pause and then you come back with something really confident to say, or assertive, I think it could definitely sway the other way, don't you think? Or do you still think you'd win? Well, the other thing to consider I think is that if this is a public debate or some sort of conversation that is between two parties that is being observed by other people, whether that be in a conference call or some sort of political debate that perhaps there is some value for those that are observing a particular conversation. That there is some form of again value and intrinsic confidence that is being displayed by the person that does pause, which again is probably what perhaps this author is getting at because it's in a courtroom setting that. This may not be completely applicable to a pure two party conversation that is only between two people and not observed by any other party. I think a lot of his things are being colored by the fact that these arguments or these conversations. are being held in front of a jury or witnesses or a judge, and that it's being highly colored by tactics of the courtroom. Yeah. And um that's a great segue to the next bullet point I wrote. The next two things I wrote down were from his notes were silence is never misquoted. And also, a person who speaks last always loses. And I feel like that's almost a contradiction to what you just said. So what do you think of that? The person who speaks last loses. Well, I say again, it's a courtroom perspective because. In certain conversations. There shouldn't even be winners and losers, and I think this was actually something that maybe we discussed. Not on the podcast, but just between us is that. Conversations should not even have the intent of their being winners and losers because if you are truly conversing with someone and trying to exchange your ideas and gather their thoughts and opinions on a particular subject that you are not necessarily doing that to win or lose. So was that from this author or was that something completely unrelated? It was. It was earlier in his book. I'm about halfway through the book right now. So that's interesting. And again, I have not read the book, so maybe this is just these two main ideas bubbling to the surface, and he explains the nuance between the two. But it's interesting that he would say that conversations are with the intent to not have winners and losers and then later in the book is saying that there are winners and losers in conversations. OK, that's fair enough. I'd have to rethink about it or look back at my notes. I can see that just from the little bit you've gotten from me. But remember, I'm on like chapter, I don't know, 8 now or something, so he's reached a lot of topics. Earlier when I talked about, yeah, that you, the point of talking isn't to win. Uh, and then he's talking about the last person they talk loses. So definitely seem contradictory. Um, he's at that point talking about different things. But I think what he's talking about for the last person that talks loses, is people often want the last word, right? Like, an argument or conversation, on a podcast or anything like that. You want to be the last voice heard? Cause you think then you won or like that's gonna leave the lasting impression. I think his argument maybe is that the last impression isn't always the best thing. You can exude more confidence. By saying what you need and then being done. Versus um continuing to try to fill in words and stories that aren't needed. Just to get the last word in. Yeah, that's true. I think that is. A fair point, right is that. If you still haven't learned the lesson from the earlier in the chapters that there aren't winners and losers in the conversation unless you are explicitly trying to make their a winner and loser, is that There is not necessarily any particular points gained by simply being the last word. OK, the funniest thing that he did that I literally laughed out loud at. He always prefaces it like chapter 4, and he gives a title. And then expounds on it, and then has like questions afterwards, and then he's like, chapter 5, and then does the same outline, right? For one of them, he's like, chapter 7. The less words, the better. Chapter 8. And then he was like, just kidding. And then he went back to like why less words are valuable. But I just thought that was so funny to like a little punch in there to be like, OK. Less words the better, then. That is humorous. I wonder how that's in the printed copy if it was like. -- Just that page like a -- whole page and then you had to like flip the page to see the just kidding. I hope so. If you, if anyone's read the book and sees the printed copy, let us know. That would be so good. So in the audio version of the book, is this self-narrated? Yes. Oh no. He speaks very conversational versus uh other than the titles, where he's very uh paused, like chapter 5. Kind of thing. The rest was very conversational. So for me it's easy to listen to, that's so I have to intentionally pause it to reflect on what he's saying. But I know you don't like narrators reading their own stuff. Yes, perhaps that will be a topic for another time with regards to self-narration. But hopefully, this episode has been helpful for people to consider pausing in conversations and maybe you will even be interested in this book. We'll have a link in the show notes to this author and his self-narrated audio book as well as a printed copy and Maybe you can buy a copy and let us know what he does with that particular chapter that says less words is better. And for all you other podcasters out there, watch out for those filler words. So, from your friends at I hate Talking, until next time, remember, it is only through talking that we begin the journey to understanding.