Mind Your Ps and Qs

Discussion Focus:
The hosts explore the origin and meaning of the phrase "mind your P's and Q's," sharing theories, personal experiences, and research.

Main Theories Discussed:

• Typesetting/Printing Press Theory:
  The phrase may have originated from early printing, where printers had to be careful not to confuse the lowercase letters "p" and "q," which look similar when set backward for printing.
• Tavern/Pub Theory:
  Another theory suggests the phrase comes from English and Australian pubs, where bartenders kept track of patrons' consumption of "pints" and "quarts" (Ps and Qs) on a chalkboard, urging them to "mind their Ps and Qs" to avoid mistakes in billing or overindulgence..
• Other Theories:
  • Nautical Theory: Sailors were told to mind their "pea coats" and "queues" (braided hair).
  • Politeness Theory: The phrase is a shorthand for "please" and "thank you," though the hosts find this unconvincing.
  • French Dance Terms: Refers to the French dance terms "pied" and "queue."
  • Celtic/Scottish Linguistic Theory: Relates to differences in spelling between Celtic and Scottish languages, though the hosts doubt its validity.

Historical Evidence:

• The phrase appears in records as early as 1602, with the first written example found in 1756: "mind your P's and Q's and always travel in the autumn."
• Both the printing press and the use of pints/quarts date to the 14th century, so the timing does not clearly support one theory over the other.

Modern Usage:

• Today, "mind your P's and Q's" means to behave properly, be polite, or pay attention to detail, especially in social situations.
• The hosts agree that, regardless of origin, the phrase is commonly understood as a reminder to act appropriately, particularly in new or formal settings.

Personal Reflections:

• The hosts discuss how the phrase could be used with children as a positive way to encourage good behavior, contrasting it with negative admonitions like "don't act like a hoodlum."
• They consider experimenting with this approach in their own parenting.

Conclusion:

• The true origin of "mind your P's and Q's" remains uncertain, with several plausible but unproven theories.
• The phrase's meaning in contemporary English is clear: it is a call for attentiveness to manners and behavior, especially in social contexts.

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Any views expressed on this podcast are those solely of the hosts and is for entertainment purposes only. None of the content is medical advice or financial advice.

Special thanks to Tim Wright aka CoLD SToRAGE for his permission to use the song Operatique.

Transcript

I Hate Talking: 0:29

Welcome to episode 55 of I Hate Talking. Hi everyone. Now we're going to jump right into our word or phrase of the episode that we alluded to in our previous episode, and that is a phrase, mind your P's and Q's. So I think you already had maybe started to give your theory on the origin of that phrase last episode, so continue to enlighten us. OK, so I think it comes from the original typewriter or whatever they called it, right, the printing press. And all the letters were backwards because you had to like attach them, so it would print properly. So a P and a Q were backwards. So if you wanted a P for that word, like print, It looked like a cue to the user. So that is one of the theories upon some further research that I did in preparation for this episode where the typesetting that early printing presses would employ that the printer would have to mind their Ps and Q's in order to make sure that they had those lower case letters in the proper position. Had you not heard that theory before I mentioned it last time? I had not heard that theory before you had mentioned it last time. I don't think it really makes a lot of sense because you would also have the letter D that would also D and B and B. Well, there you go. Yes, because the D if you flip it upside down is going to be like a P. And likewise your B is going to be like a Q and vice versa. Right, but also, I do want to argue that I feel like a B and a D in that circumstance might be easier if you have them alphabetically labeled. Because B is just the second letter, where a P and Q are both really far down. In the alphabet? So it's harder to keep track of. And also, everyone's gonna hate how many key sounds pop in this episode. Sorry y'all. That is true. P and Q are next to each other in the alphabet. So, that does lend a little bit of credence perhaps to the typesetting theory. But the theory that I had always heard and really had assumed that it was the only theory and just basically fact on the origin story of the phrase mind your P's and Q's was related to old pubs in the English and Australian days that bartenders would need to make sure people minded their Ps and Q's. In terms of their pints and their quarts of the beer that they were drinking. Hm. So that if a particular patron was having a variety of pints, maybe some quarts, that they would write that on their tab on a chalkboard or a slate, and that was basically making sure that the patrons would mind their Ps and Q's. Because that does flow into the modern day usage in terms of mind your P's and Q's is to behave in an appropriate manner or be polite or pay special attention to detail. OK, so I've never heard that until you just said it. Could it be cultural or regional reasoning then? Because we grew up on the opposite ends of the coast. And obviously, I grew up in a very conservative family that wouldn't know much about pubs, where I feel like the East Coast would know more about a traditional pub than the West Coast. So is it more regional why you would grow up thinking that, where I grew up thinking it was a typewriter or a printing press? Perhaps that would explain maybe the reason that we have a different story that was told on the origin of mind your P's and Q's, but I don't think that the actual origin and the etymology would be two different things that resulted in the same phrase that essentially means the same thing. OK. So, what did you, here, so I've never heard your story, you had never heard mine before last time we talked about it. So what did you find out in the research? So my own personal story that I had heard this originally was when I was visiting Australia, which is going to be basically related to the English pub theory. So you hadn't heard about this in like maybe 20 years ago. You hadn't heard that phrase? I don't know if I would. I probably wouldn't have heard the phrase, but this is when I learned of its origin. OK, go on. And at a pub in Australia that was Established many centuries ago. That was basically their story on how Ps and Q's came to be used as a phrase is from the usage within the pub for pints and quarts. And then I did do some other research. It does seem that this is a debated topic in terms of the actual etymology of mind your P's and Q's. So we've already talked about the first two is the quote unquote cavern theory. That it is in regards to pints and quarts and their record keeping that a bartender would do on a slate for their patrons. And we've also talked about the typesetting theory where it is because of the difficulty in distinguishing between the lowercase p and the lowercase q. And then there's also, I guess 3 other theories, maybe 4, that some have suggested. The next one on the list is the nautical theory that it might have resulted in sailors talking about their key coats and their cues, which is another word that would have been used at that time for their style of hair, which was braided pigtails in most cases. So if you were At sea, you would need to pay attention and you would take care of your clothing, your pea coats, and your hair or your cues. And there's also a theory that relates to it being just a shortened form of please and thank you. And I think this is more of just a modern way of explaining this particular phrase. Because it does have in the modern usage some degree of referencing politeness, but I don't think that's what it means because please is not P and thank you is not you. But that is another theory that is out there. And then there's also two French dance terms where it is. Referencing in this theory, the French terms pi and Q, which are particular French dance moves that that is where that particular phrase came from. And then I did find one particular person that submitted a comment here is that it actually may have something to do with the languages of the Celtic language. And the Scottish language where they would actually use different letters to represent sounds and then those sort of merged in together, but where the Celtic language would typically start words with P and the Scottish as well as Irish and other similar languages would start something with a Q sound. Where it is actually a C usually followed by a vowel. So their example that they gave in this. Is 0. is basically pen in Welsh, but in Scottish and the English equivalent, it's actually no idea how to pronounce it. I guess if it's a Q sound, it would be. Queen, but it's actually spelled C E A N N in the Scottish and Irish equivalent. So that would be also a perhaps less robust theory in terms of where P's and Q's came from in terms of how you spelled words when some of these languages were mixing. You had to mind your P's and Q's and use the appropriate letters based on whether you're talking in The Welsh, Cornish, Celtic languages or the Scottish and Irish languages. And what is that supposed to mean if you speak those languages that you would have to be careful with spelling the words, whether it is the He sound which is represented by. The letter P versus the Q sound which is represented by the CE. So again, I don't think that theory holds much weight because if that was the case and you were representing these spoken sounds with a P and a C, then the phrase would be mind your P's and C's. So what is the farthest back you can go. For that I what, what is the origin as far back as you can go. Because at right this moment, I'm buying yours and my arguments. Everyone, the other arguments are too vague. Is it mind your P's and Q's, meaning pay attention when you're doing the printing press. Or pay attention when you're in a pub, that you're not charging them and losing money or overcharging them. So, according to some of the research, is that this phrase first appeared in some records of being spoken as far back as 1602. So that could still fit in with the printing press theory since that was invented in 1440. But also still could be part of the pub theory or the tavern theory. Then apparently the first written phrase that we have is in 1756, where the exact quote is, mind your P's and Q's and always travel in the autumn. So, we don't really have any particular conclusion on this. You, our listener can draw your own conclusions based on our research or maybe even have heard another theory, since there's a wide variety out there on these, but that is what we found. Yeah, I'm not buying any of these, and I want to hear other people's opinions because it seems so convoluted. As you're talking, So when I even just look up like when the printing presses versus like when the measurements of pint versus quartz are, right? Maybe if one comes before the other. And this phrase comes in between, that would answer the question, right? But I hear that like pints and quartz comes from the 14th century. That unit of measurement. But then like the printing press comes from like, The 14th century also. They both come from that similar time frame, right? That is true, and that is, I think align with perhaps where this phrase first showed up in the 1600s. So perhaps it was used a little bit earlier than that, but that's really where we'll start to see some of that in the history. But then again, according to this, right, is that the first specific printed of that exact phrase was not until 1756. OK, so that's quite a bit later, which is why both could argue it comes from that. And that's why we can't find a clear origin of the word. Precisely what is pretty definite is how it is used today because the expression I think is generally accepted, at least currently, and maybe it'll mean something different in the future is that it has, like I said, something to do with politeness or making sure that you Behave appropriately or pay attention to detail specifically in one's behavior, but I think that also does give a little bit of a callback to the typesetting theory, but that is, I think, how we use that in the modern lexicon. Yeah, so one of the arguments you gave earlier that both of us were like, don't buy that. was for that origin of like. Being mindful about your demeanor. Both of us from giving explanations of that, we were able to both instantly be like, that doesn't make sense, write it off. But both you and I are in agreement. If someone told you or I, mind your P's and Q's, we would know that means to be proper. And careful on what we do or say, right? Yes, that is correct. Which I can see both the type theory and the printing type theory come into play. But not overwhelmingly, like, yeah, that's what it means. Earlier, one of the arguments you said was like proper. Be improper and. Acting and speaking in a proper way, and that's how I take it. I see. So you're coming over to my side on the tavern theory? Oh. I think both are, both of our theories are saying be specific and be alert. But my thoughts never necessarily that way, it's just be proper. Yes, so even in your modern usage of that phrase mind your P's and Q's, it has more to do with behavior within a social setting where you're acting in a proper manner versus just simply paying attention to detail and making sure that you're spelling a word correctly when you're composing something. So you think your tavern theory is correct. With a bartender. It's not a social thing, he's still being specific on. Did they order a pint or did they order a quart? Yeah I suppose so, but there is a social interaction that is occurring if they do make a mistake, whereas a Printer is going to see their error when they print the first page or the person that is inspecting that document will make sure that they correct it for any future pages. So that may not have as much social interaction, whereas a bartender and a patreon or somebody that is serving one another or being served is going to have that interaction and even while they are still paying attention, there is a bit of social interaction there. Maybe, but both of our arguments, I would say, are saying that in the future. Whether it's immediate or a couple days or weeks, would have a backfire. Or in my head when mind your P's and Q's means like right now, pay attention, they're watching you. And your actions at this moment are gonna impact. Their opinion of you or impact their thoughts of you. Yeah, I suppose so, but I think the base concept of what you're describing is that there is somebody. Watching you and that is a, to some degree, social interaction that that. Observation takes place. And you'd say printed isn't a social thing. No, I think you could be printing something on your own. There is no other person there and you're just doing the typesetting. And it does fit, right, that if somebody, the master printer says mind your P's and Q's to the apprentice that then they will need to pay attention, but I don't think that's how it's used even in the modern day, it's more with instructing somebody that perhaps they are not behaving in a particular appropriate manner. Or they're going into some sort of social situation that does require a higher degree of making sure that you behave correctly, that that would be more of the usage that I see. Would you think this is the phrase people could use nowadays? We haven't used this with our children. Is this a phrase that you would think is appropriate to tell them like, as we're going into a new setting? Boys, mind your P's and Q's. I suppose so. It is shorthand for Making sure that you behave appropriately, so instead of just saying. Behave appropriately, talk correctly. Watch where you're going. Be polite that all of that is wrapped up in mind your P's and Q's. I have someone I know from my young childhood that would do this, and I stole it from them. And they would often do the, they'd ask in the car before going to an event, and I do it sometimes with my boys. They ask them, are you a hoodlum? And they say, no. And then they ask them, what does a hoodlum do? And the kids like shout out and our boys will shout out what they think a quote unquote hoodleum does. And maybe it's like screams, runs around, whatever. And then I say, are you a hoodlum? And they say, no. And I'm like, are we gonna act like a hoodlum? And they say, no. And it's like a fun way to like hump us, I feel like, to, like you said, mind your P's and Q's. Like, these are, but it's the opposite. It's, we don't do these things because we're not that kind of person. So we will do the opposite. It doesn't work, you know, our kids, it doesn't always work, but it's a fun way to do enter a social situation. Yes, I suppose so. So maybe. Flipping to the positive and. Communicating the expected behavior instead of the negative of the disliked behavior is a better way of doing things. Mhm. And that would be minding your P's and Q's. OK, so I need to start. You want me to switch it in the car then? I think that most times that. There is an area where you need to explain what not to do, but in a lot of areas that probably it's maybe more impactful to explain what you should do. OK. So, as a very simple example in child rearing, I think that if your kid is playing at the playground and doing something maybe a bit outside of their normal comfort zone and you say, don't fall, that is a negative statement and therefore, Probably not the best advice, whereas if you say, be careful or watch your footing, that is a positive statement of what they are to do and therefore will be actually more helpful to them. So in the same vein. Saying don't act like a hoodlum may not be as effective as saying, find your Ps and Q's. OK, so we try it, see how they react? We can, I guess we'll do a little experiment. I don't know if they listen to this podcast anymore, so I'm not sure if that will color the experiment at all. But if they do or do not, I guess we can try that and see what happens. OK. Now, I do actually do that with that exact scenario that I described that if they are doing something perhaps new for the first time or beyond their previous skill set, mostly in the physical domain where they're on a playground or using a knife or whatever the case may be that I will try to give positive instructions, so. In the knife example, instead of saying. Don't cut towards yourself. Just simply flipping that around to cut away from yourself can be massively impactful in the way that they understand that phrase and behave accordingly. It's not they process that as cut away from me, cut away from myself, cut away from me more often than. Don't cut yourself. That could mean a variety of things like your leg, your hand, your arm. So I agree. I think that instead of saying don't run into the street. Saying stay on the sidewalk, gives them a better sense of boundaries and a better sense of what they're supposed to be doing than this fear of the street. Precisely. So that is mind your P's and Q's, the origin story thereof, and how we use it in the modern day and perhaps how it may be. An improvement in how we communicate expected behavior. Yeah, OK, so it reminds me, just 2 days ago we were out getting dessert with our family. And our kids were kind of running around. It was an open area. And our children are on the older side of elementary, so we kind of trust them to know how to run. And they're having a good time. We were talking. Another little kid that was just, how old was he? What? 15, 2? started to join them and he ran into the street and a car nearly hit him. And it was scary. The family screamed, they got involved, um, our kids all froze cause they knew not to go into the street. You know, this is our area where we're running back and forth. But someone that young didn't have that concept, and it was scary. We nearly saw this little toddler get run over by a car. Which the car was doing what it was supposed to be doing, the back road, but It was driving as it was supposed to do. I did not expect a toddler to run in front of it. That is true. I did not see the actual event occur. I saw, right. I heard the, the screams and the cries and then turned and saw sort of the kid already being rescued by the adults in that party, but. Yes, that is true. So there is also the maturity required to know even what the P's and Q's should be and what those boundaries are. So you can't just say mind your P's and Q's without any previous instruction. They still need to know what the boundaries are and what the expected behavior is, but once that is established, saying mind your P's and Q's could be a positive reinforcement of behaving properly, speaking politely and paying attention to what you are doing. Yeah, cause that kid had no concept of what our children were doing. And he didn't have a concept of the boundary they knew. They knew what was safe and what wasn't. He didn't. And nearly got ran over. So, Sue's saying like, hey, mind your P's and Q's, but if he knew the P's and Q's meant, do not cross this line here. You can run back and forth, do not go over that line. And that is, right? So I feel like we don't have to constantly tell our children a boundary. They know where the boundary is from, like you said, maturity and life experience. Precisely. So. I don't know where else we were gonna go with this particular episode. We sort of had this on the docket, so to speak, because we talked about it last time. But I think it did evolve into some particular salient points on Understanding what proper behavior is, perhaps some of the things in negative phrases versus positive phrases and how that is interpreted, especially by kids, but I think it's true for people of any age. Yeah, how would it apply to you? My and your Ps and Q's as an adult in your mid Life How if someone told you, mind your P's and Q's, how would that apply to you today? So I do really only see myself within a social situation, if that phrase was used, that I would need to make sure that I'm. Treating people in my social setting with proper respect and behaving appropriately for whatever the setting is. So if it's a work setting, that's going to be different than a church setting versus a setting where it's just routine versus maybe something that is for fun, that those four big categories are going to be. Something different if that phrase was used, but nonetheless that. Maybe it's used in a corrective manner that I'm doing something outside of the norm and need to adjust my behavior or uh like I said, it's maybe a high profile social situation, so you just need to have more attention to detail so that you do behave appropriately and make sure that you're doing everything correctly. So if your phone sent you an alert. Like, you know, your alarms or whatnot, your reminders. If your phone said a reminder of mind your P's and Q's, how would you take that? Well, I don't know how I take that if my phone was sending me alerts. That seems like alert. It doesn't send alerts like that that if I don't set it like maybe I have a reminder that I've set myself that I need to be. Physically active or wake up or phone you alerts to like check your heart rate and relax. No, I've never had any issues with that. Uh, I need to check my settings. Or check your heart, one or the other. No, my phone has not sent any alerts like that, so. If it did, I would be a little bit alarmed that perhaps AI is having too much of a overbearing insight into my personal life. But I guess it would depend again if AI was real and could tell what I was doing and when I was doing it and who I was doing it in the midst of that, then maybe I need to check my behavior, but I would actually be more afraid of the fact that AI and some sort of technological device sent the alert rather than my own behavior in that specific instance. So you wouldn't think it's just an automated res like when I get my check your heart rate? I think it's just the automated, and I don't do it. But you're saying you would check it if it tells you, check your heart rate. Uh, at least the first couple times I suppose. I've never had that ever. Well, I did get it once and I know exactly why it happened. So I was at a concert. I was seated and The music was playing, this is a very rock oriented artist. And a lot of loud music, and I did get an alert that says you have been motionless and your heart rate is elevated. I was like, oh yeah, I'm listening to this rock music, and I'm in a setting where I can't like move around. So that actually makes sense. That is the one single time that I've ever had any alert like that. OK. I don't get that exact wording, but I get, uh, I'm Once or twice a day. Do I need to go to the doctor? Apparently. No, it just tells me to like check it and to relax. You, you never get Nina tells you to relax. Just that one time where I was like, check your heart rate because you're you're not moving, it doesn't make sense why you have an elevated heart rate from the particular inputs that these devices had, but it did make sense to me because I was in a high energy environment that I was not moving around in. Oh no, I get it daily. So, if I got an alert on my phone that told me to mind my Ps and Q's, it would be helpful just like, oh yeah, just chill, to act better. But you would take it as a whole different, like, they're spying on you and you're not acting as the big brother wants you to. Precisely. Oh no. So I think that is perhaps a good spot to end this podcast. I'm gonna go to the doctor apparently. Well, it won't be the first time. So if you have enjoyed this episode, do like and share it with others. Perhaps you have your own personal theory on the origin of the phrase mind your P's and Q's. You can always send us an email, send us a text, leave a comment on whatever particular podcast platform you are listening to this podcast on, and we would love to hear from you. Yeah. So, from your friends at IHTalking, until next time, remember, it is only through talking that we begin the journey to understanding.