One Year Podcasting Celebration and Norman Doors

 Episode 56 of “I Hate Talking” celebrates the podcast’s one-year anniversary since its launch in May 2024, reflecting on the journey and thanking listeners for their support. The hosts announce that all episodes now have transcripts and improved show notes to enhance accessibility and discoverability.

The episode’s featured phrase is “Norman Door,” a term named after design expert Don Norman, referring to doors whose operation (push or pull) is unclear or confusing to users. The hosts discuss examples of Norman Doors, including doors with misleading handles or no handles, and share personal anecdotes about confusing door experiences, including one involving a black eye caused by a misjudged door. They explain that Don Norman advocates for user-friendly, intuitive design and that the term highlights design failures rather than celebrating them.

The conversation also touches on podcast highlights from the past year, such as episodes on chaos, conspiracy theories, and notable historical events, emphasizing the shift from structured to more spontaneous episode formats. The hosts share personal reflections on their podcasting experience, including challenges with scheduling, production, and sharing the podcast with others.
Listeners are encouraged to share feedback, suggest future topics or phrases, and spread the word about the podcast. The episode closes with a reminder that open conversation is key to understanding.

In summary, this episode marks a milestone for “I Hate Talking,” introduces the concept of Norman Doors as a metaphor for confusing design, reflects on the podcast’s evolution, and invites listener engagement.

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Any views expressed on this podcast are those solely of the hosts and is for entertainment purposes only. None of the content is medical advice or financial advice.

Special thanks to Tim Wright aka CoLD SToRAGE for his permission to use the song Operatique.

Transcript

I Hate Talking: 0:29

Welcome to episode 56 of I Hate Talking. Hi everyone. So there you have it. We have reached one year of podcasting. Wow, crazy. So we'll celebrate with a little bit of champagne. So we have been podcasting for one year now, I guess over a year, considering that we did a number of episodes in the month of March and April of 2024 in preparation for our release in May of 2024, but now we are here in May of 2025. Wow, that year went by so quick. I know everyone always says that, but I did. Indeed, so we know that there are many faithful listeners out there, so we appreciate your support and your continued listening to this particular podcast. And if you do like and enjoy this podcast, do share it with others. You can always send them a particular episode or just share our website in general, and that will give them the directory to all our episodes, or just tell them to find I hate talking on whatever particular podcast platform they use on a regular basis. Yeah, please. So we do have a number of exciting announcements before we dive into this particular episode and the word or phrase of the episode and our particular topic. OK, I don't even know that we have announcements, so I'm excited to hear it. So in no particular order, all of our episodes now have transcripts. Yeah, yeah, Adam's been working hard on that, and we've already heard that people really appreciate it. So thanks, Adam, and we'll keep doing it. And likewise, we're working on revising and enhancing some of our previous episodes show notes to make them easier to find, more relevant, and that way if you do want to go back and find a previous episode, you can hopefully search it and based on the enhanced show notes, be able to find that. And that might be it, -- I guess those are our -- announcements. That's a lot of work for you, but yeah, I think it's worth it and should make it easier for people. Indeed, it should. So our word or phrase of this episode is a phrase Norman doors. Norman Doors. I've never even heard that before. So have you ever encountered a door where you are not quite sure if you should push or pull that door to open it? Oh my gosh, every day of my life, or maybe even the door slides to the left or to the right. -- Oh -- yeah. Maybe later we can talk about my black guy I got from a door once. We might have to because I don't necessarily know if I can recall the exact scenario, but Norman door, that particular phrase, is the description given to doors where the mechanism in which to open it is not clearly or very well understood by the user upon first inspection of the door. So is it just a term for it, or is there like a specific Norman door? So, the term is basically and generally applied to any door that is difficult to understand its use. So this could be a door that has an outward facing handle that you actually have to push to open, where normally you would interpret that handle, meaning that you have to pull it, or it could be a door with no handles at all, which, you know, doesn't look easy to open at all, but you have to push it in some form or fashion. Or like I said, maybe there's even doors with handles that look like you may have to push or pull, but they are actually sliding doors. So is it more of a relative term then? Cause some people, I feel like don't have a problem with doors. So would it be a universal door that that's a problem too, or is it relative like, it's a Norman door for me? It is generally, I think now, sort of a relative term that it can apply to any door that is difficult to understand its use or just confusing to use. And to your point, maybe there are levels of understanding that people have or do not have when it comes to particular doors that maybe there will be a Norman door to someone and a normal door to others. OK. We have one of our children is really into design fals currently. There's like YouTubers that do it. And uh he gets such a kick out of design fails, especially for doors, cause yeah, it'll say like, pull, and it's an obvious push, like, so they have the wrong label on it. Would a Norman door also be considered, like in these design fails he watches, how um the door won't fully open cause there's an object in the way, or is it specifically how it opens, period. Yeah, it has more to do with its particular use. So the push pull example, or there's some examples where there might be a handle that appears to turn but actually doesn't do anything or perhaps does turn, but it only is there for aesthetic rather than actual function. So it's not necessarily to do with anything that prevents the door from functioning properly, just more to do with understanding how to use it in general. OK, yeah. So the source of this particular phrase comes from it being named after a design guru named Don Norman. So, basically this particular designer, like, it was named after him because he did really bad design fails, or he noticed the design fails. I guess my question is, is he proud? But the concepts named after him. Yeah, I'm struggling to find that information because it is certainly named after him. So, I think he would be perhaps proud in the fact that he was the one to first identify and name this sort of particular experience that people have using certain doors. So, He wrote a book called The Design of Everyday Things and basically talked about how doors are one example of things that can be frustrating to use if you don't understand or there's no particular visual indicators on how the door is to be used. So this particular gentleman was an advocate of people oriented design. So basically talked about doors, even light switches, or just other everyday objects that people use and may find frustrating if there's confusing aspects to their use. You said he's an advocate, like he appreciates it. He finds joy in these obscure doors. No, he's An advocate of people oriented functionality. So he wants things to be designed in a way that are easy to use and easily understood. I see. OK. So then, yeah, he probably would take joy. Oh no, maybe not. Yeah, it is an interesting bit of history that this particular gentleman who was the design guru wrote this book and identified this issue within society. And then frustrating doors later became to be known as Norman Doors because it actually should be really like on Norman Doors or something like that, but that's the title that stuck was Norman Doors even though he was advocating against such things. Right. Oh wow, poor guy. So, that is our phrase of the episode, Norman Door, not one that you may hear too often, but one that you probably do experience from time to time. Yeah, I mean, we can definitely use it in conversations and bring it back. Poor Norman, if he wants that or not. Indeed, so now you can put a phrase to your experience when you encounter a door or some other everyday object that is frustrating and confusing to use. Yeah, you know, have you experienced times where you're somewhere and like everyone around you is telling you like, push it, you know, cause they're used to everyone trying to pull it or something like that, right? And maybe at a store, the clerk just knows to constantly tell people when they go to that door. So now we can be like, it's a Norman door, you pull it instead. Precisely. There is an interesting anecdote that I heard from a coworker that went to Brazil and experienced this very thing where there was a Norman door and he was unable to tell if he was to push or pull the door in order to open it. And everyone around him was yelling the Portuguese word for push, which I guess in English sounds like pull, so he continually pulled on the door as people were yelling, pull, pull, but it was actually the Portuguese word for push. Oh no, that is embarrassing. Poor guy. Indeed, so I have not had a chance yet to talk to anyone I know in Europe about what they call a phone application. So that mystery remains unsolved to this date, but hopefully we'll have an answer soon within the next episode or two. Oh yeah, that's a call back, right, to the episode about apps. And whether they call their phone, oh no, we're not gonna get through this again, but yes, that's the callback, right, to the episode about apps. Apps, yes, phone applications. So, was the door that gave you a black eye, a Norman door? I guess, or user air, but I'm not above saying user error. So you don't remember this? It seems vaguely familiar, -- but I cannot recall the -- exact. I do remember the black eye. I do remember that it was caused by a door, but I don't remember exactly how or why or any particular details about the event. So you and I went away for a weekend together, and that's very uncommon. Uh, usually we have our kids in tow. So it was really exciting to be away, and we were staying at a hotel, and in the middle of the night, I had to get up to use the restroom. And I thought the restroom door was a sliding door, like a pocket door or something, and it was really dark and I wasn't familiar with the room. So I was trying to like push it, slide it open. And it was kind of stuck. So I yanked it really hard to try to like unstick it. I thought, well, I didn't know that it was closed and it was uh Uh, out and indoor. So I yank it to unstick it, I'm thinking, but instead, the door flew at me and hit me straight in the eye. And like side of the face, and I had a really nice shiner for a long time afterwards. So I don't know if that's an example of a Norman door. There are, like you said, a number of other considerations there, just the familiarity of the space as well as the level of light that was present that did not allow you to observe in fine detail that it was not a pocket door and it was actually in fact a swing door. So probably not necessarily an exact example of a Norman d'or, but certainly was very painful, I suppose. Yeah, and it just looked really bad for a while. So it was a conversation starter. Luckily, I don't have a high sense of pride or high sense of shame, I guess, because I just have to tell people I was trying to open a bathroom door and smack myself in the face. Yep, it almost sounds it sounds fake. It doesn't sound like a real story, but it was my story and I just had to own it. Indeed, so I think Norman doors, I've experienced them a lot of times when they are glass doors where they have some form of handle attached to the glass where that's sort of necessitated by the fact that it is a glass door and can't just have handles placed anywhere for the structural integrity of the door. So, a lot of times I think that glass doors will be Norman doors because of that very fact. Could you consider a glass door a Norman door if you don't know it's there? Have you experienced times where there's glass all around and it's so clear that you just like walk into it? Well, I certainly think that that would not be a people oriented door if it is causing those type of scenarios. So maybe not a Norman door in the strictest sense of the word where it's confusing or difficult to use, but certainly not people oriented, but I don't know if I've ever had that experience personally, certainly seeing the YouTube videos and things of that nature where that has happened, but As far as personal experience, I don't think so. Well, we have another anecdote of that happening to our kids. We were at an event and one of our kids got hurt, not overly, but he got hurt, and there was a glass wall between us. And so our other kid came running out to tell us that his brother was hurt, and he didn't know it was a glass door, and he smacked into that and then he got hurt too. It's kind of funny, but also they're OK and we can laugh because they're OK. Indeed, so lots of things that we can think about as we think about Norman doors or just Norman objects where we want to not only experience the world in an understanding way, but also if we are in positions to design things that people use that we want to consider these things as well that we can make it people oriented. So that whatever we are designing, whether that be a door or some sort of other physical object or even a phone app that we are considered of how people will use those things and make it straightforward, easy to understand and intuitive. Yeah, think about it. Would Norman be proud of this? Would he approve? And if not, don't do it. Or do it in a way that Norman would approve. So that is our word or phrase of the episode, Norman Door, and now we will move on perhaps to any other topics that we would like to consider for this episode. We would like to hear from you, our listeners, any particular thoughts on either this episode or previous episodes. If you do have a suggestion for a word or phrase of the episode, you can always send us a text on the link in the show notes or send us an email or leave us a comment on any podcast platform that you particularly are using. And to that end, I guess perhaps what has been your favorite episode to either record or listen to? You're asking me? I'm asking you. You're the one I'm talking to right now. I certainly the listeners can let us know, but you are the person I'm talking to in this moment. OK, give me a second. Let me think. OK, well, my first thought was the airplane one, and we did it relatively recently with all the aviation errors that went around. Um, was it also the conspiracy one? I felt like I learned a lot during that one. So we did touch on conspiracy theories during the airplane disaster episode. The main one that we started talking about that was the September 11th episode. Oh, OK, yeah. And then the other one that pops in my head that I just enjoy is the very first one I led because you definitely take the reins of this, and I'm just along for the ride. But one time I let it, and you hated the episode. But we got a lot of feedback from People I know. So, I think cause they know my sense of humor, or they know me well, but they were like, hey, I liked that. And so I think because they know our dynamic, they knew that you were off. I don't know if other people necessarily noticed or knew. But they knew that you were off your game that episode. I forget what it was, but I found joy in that one, post recording because people noticed. I think that one is called like Chaos or something like that. Yes, I believe that was episode 12, the chaos episode, and I think even though I perhaps did not enjoy it in the moment, it was a turning point for the podcast in general because I think up to that point, we had been a little bit more structured and had always. Had a plan or even really a a firm outline in terms of what word or phrase we were going to do, what topics we were going to cover, even down to some of the specific points of those topics. And that was the first episode that we did not have any of that. And we've done a number of episodes much more loosely since then, where we know the word and the topic and that's about it. So I think that has helped the podcast in general at least in our Composition and recording of episodes. So those are the ones that stick out in my head, and also not trying to be a downer, some of them I've mentioned are. But also, um, the one where President Trump got shot, that sticks out my head for sure too, because that was just such a unique moment in history. I'd never experienced that sort of thing. So that bonus episode rereleased the night it happened. It's definitely a strong memory for me. Indeed, so it's interesting to note that some of my highlighted episodes are some of the same ones. So I was actually thinking of the chaos episode for that very reason that it was sort of a turning point in our podcast journey where Like I said, up to that point, we had a little bit more rigidity about our topics. And after that, we were, I think, a little bit more unplanned and impromptu with our particular podcast. So. I think that actually made things better in the long run. -- When -- did you start appreciating that episode because you almost didn't air it. You're like, no, this is crazy. And I was like, just air it. We don't have time to record a new one. And the people don't like it, they don't have to listen. was my attitude towards it. And then we got feedback that people liked it. So when was the turning point for you on liking or tolerating the episode? Yeah, it was probably many episodes later because I think we actually had planned some things after that episode. So immediately after that episode we did some of the things on money and money dysmorphia and that mini series that we did, the three part miniseries, people like that, and the decision fatigue and mental load, so that was some other things that we had planned. So I don't know if it was until the summer of camping episode that I really appreciated the chaos episode because the summer of camping episode was one of those sort of unplanned and just go with the flow type episodes where we didn't know exactly what we're going to talk about, but we just sort of went with the flow and I think made a good episode in that regard as well. OK. So the chaos episode, what else sticks in your brain from this past year? So also the attempted assassination of President Trump. When we did that episode, the night of, immediately after the day that that event had transpired. Was it about a year ago? Um, I feel like it was really soon, right? Going on a year soon. No, I don't think it could be a year because I think we were, it was right in the middle of one of our miniseries. So it was either in the middle of the money miniseries or in the middle of the decision fatigue miniseries. So that would have been like episode maybe 1516. Uh, yeah, July, so we still have a few months till that one year anniversary. Yep. And then the synaesthesia episode, I think was. Pretty good one. we got a lot of positive. Feedback on that one and that one was actually, I think, recently one of our most downloaded episodes. That one is interesting. So those are some of our highlights I suppose in terms of episodes that we've either enjoyed or not enjoyed recording, but some of the ones that stick out in our minds for various reasons or ones that are more popular with our listeners. So just interesting things to note as we sort of celebrate and recap one year of podcasting. Yeah, and over this year, is there anything? That you're really either really proud of or would have done something different. Well, we're certainly learning as we go. So, like we mentioned at the very start of the episode, now we have better show notes and transcripts and things of that nature. I think we've done a pretty good job with just the quality in terms of both sound quality and production quality, and hopefully, in my mind, we have relevant and useful content when it comes to things that we talk about. So that is part of the reason that we started podcasting in general. Which I believe that was episode 10 are. Origin story. So that is, I think something that I am proud of. In terms of things to do differently, I don't know if we could have a better schedule on production and editing. Sometimes we're waiting till the last minute, but perhaps those have been episodes that are some of the best. I don't know. I'd have to go back and sort of look and see when we did. The actual recording and post production edits and publication to see, but there were definitely some times where we were editing. The night of release into the night to make sure that we dropped an episode on time, right, and neither of us, but especially you. We're not procrastinators. So when life is busy and we don't have one in the can ready to go, it can be stressful, and that's not fun. So that's my takeaways. What about yourself in terms of either something to do better or something that you're proud of? Yeah, I think I'm proud that we made it a year. I think a lot of podcasts don't. And that I still enjoy it. Like, I'm getting better. I was not good in the beginning at telling people we had a podcast. And just cause I remember this thing in high school where people teased me about being the next Oprah, like, you think you're Oprah? And I didn't, but I guess I talk like it sometimes. So, I have this like, in my head, I have this nagging thing about like, oh, now podcasts, people are right. I think I'm Like a low class Oprah. So, I've had to struggle with that, like, I do this because I enjoy it. Because I want to be with you and because I wanna do something valuable. For society, or for, I don't know, anyone who wants to listen. So, I've had to work with that about like, why I'm doing it and stop those negative thoughts in my head. Of what was high school, 25 years, 25 years ago, people teasing me about it. So, if you meet somebody new or you have a new social circle, is this going to be something that you would tell people about or you would still sort of keep in the background until later? For me, I still would keep it in the background. I put it in our Christmas card. We sent out a Christmas card and I almost didn't put it in, but I did. And mostly because who we send our cards to, we don't send them to everyone. It's just our close circle, or like, some older people that don't necessarily have, like, social media. So, I did that and I thought about that for a long while. Does this go on the Christmas card or not? But I think I would not tell people. There's still a fair amount of people that don't know. That we do this, that I interact with on a very regular basis, but if it came up, I feel like I'd mention it. So like if they were talking about their favorite podcast or something, or they shared a podcast episode with you or something like that. I don't even, maybe, like, you know, my favorite podcast is called I Hate Talking, You Should Listen. No, I wouldn't do that. Um, I might possibly, it depends on the context of why they're talking about a podcast. We were somewhere recently and one of our kids told somebody. And they were like, whoa, really? And it was another kid and his mom. And the kid was so impressed. Like, I was like, oh no, it's not like that, like. But I didn't want to shut it down too much because our child was so proud of it, that they were announcing it. And this kid was here, like, obviously impressed. So, I just kind of laughed it off and I was like, yeah, it's fun. So I'm not there yet to like pass out business cards. But maybe I would wear a hat that had it on it, and if someone asked me, I would say. If they ask what the logo meant, I would tell them. Is that super -- passive -- aggressive? That does sound right in line with your passive aggressive nature, so that makes sense. So maybe that will be an announcement next year or sooner. Maybe we'll have merch, who knows? OK, can we talk real quick? I wanna hear yours if you would tell people. But can we, I'll put it on Instagram. I haven't been good about posting on that lately, but I'll put it on there, our cups I made us. When we decided, maybe I mentioned this earlier, when we decided to do this, and you created the logo. I was like, oh, I'm gonna make us cups, like coffee cups, we can drink coffee while we record. And both of our favorite cups, or one of our favorite coffee cups, is like oversized. So, I ordered their oversized mug size. Online Not looking at sizing. And these are ridiculously large, like, they're comical. Like, mine looks like a soup bowl, and so we don't use them, they just sit as a decoration. What is true, they are comically oversized, but I do think I would appreciate that over those tiny little cups that are branded where it's like barely holds 6 ounces of coffee or something like that. Those are not very useful, so at least it's better than that. So you'd rather drink from a soup bowl and like a smaller than an espresso cup? Yes. OK, but for you, do you tell people? No, I guess not. It would be more with closer friends or in social circles where there's already some sort of established relationship. That I would be telling people, now I don't necessarily think I would be as passive aggressive if it came up in normal conversation. I think that also maybe a little bit of gender roles that are coming up because I think men in general are going to talk more about what they do. And podcasting is something that I do. So when it comes to like a job or activities or things that you do for fun. That may come up more in conversation for men than women because of just sort of that normal conversation that I think starts with a guy asking another guy, what do you do? Hm, OK, I can see that. Yeah, I don't think that's a very common. It's loaded, and we can talk about this another time maybe, but that's a loaded question for a female to ask them what do you do. especially people my age, so many work, so many are stay at home moms, so many do like part time or homeworks or something like that. So it can be come from either side. If you ask a woman, what do you do? They could think, oh, you don't think I do enough cause I stay home with my kids. Or on the flip side, sometimes if I ask someone that, they think I'm judging them like, oh, well, I work, so she must not think I'm a good mom or something, which I Don't think that at all. So it's so loaded for a girl. Where a guy usually works, some say home, but I think the majority. Work versus being a stay at home dad. Precisely, so perhaps a good topic for next time, but I think this is a good spot to end this particular episode. So like we said at the beginning, if you did enjoy this episode, like and share, subscribe, and tell your friends about this podcast and our celebration of one year and Also, as we said, if you would like to submit any feedback, leave comments, send us a text and email, you can even suggest future words or phrases of the episode or future topics that we might discuss. So from your friends at IHTalking, until next time, remember, it is only through talking that we begin the journey to understanding.