Roshambo (alternatively known as Rock Paper Scissors)

 Episode 66 of "I Hate Talking" shifts to a more lighthearted tone after two serious episodes, focusing on the word "Rochambeau," which is another name for the game rock-paper-scissors. The hosts discuss the debated origins of the term. One popular but incorrect urban legend claims that a French general named Rochambeau used the game to make battlefield decisions during the American Revolutionary War. However, the World Rock Paper Scissors Association debunks this, stating the term’s true origin is unclear but likely unrelated to the general.

The game itself originated in China, possibly as early as the Han dynasty (206 BC), and later spread to Japan and other Asian countries. The Japanese term for the game is "Jan Ken Pon." The earliest known written usage of "Rochambeau" in the U.S. appears in a 1936 book from Oakland, California, where it was spelled "Roshambeau," matching the French spelling.

Originally, the game used "cloth" instead of "paper" as one of the elements, with the hand signal for cloth being a flat palm. The reason for the shift from cloth to paper is uncertain, though some theories suggest it was due to the prevalence of paper as a modern material or its symbolic use in decision-making in ancient China.

The hosts also mention a child’s alternative version of the game using fire, plant, and water, and discuss the ancient origins of scissors, confirming that all three items (rock, paper/cloth, scissors) existed thousands of years ago.

They touch on statistical strategies for winning at rock-paper-scissors, referencing a Mark Rober video that suggests players tend to follow a predictable pattern (rock, then paper, then scissors), which can be exploited in subsequent rounds. However, they note that as more people learn these strategies, their effectiveness diminishes.

The episode ends with a reminder to listeners to share their own thoughts on the etymology of "Rochambeau" and to enjoy experimenting with the strategies discussed.

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Any views expressed on this podcast are those solely of the hosts and is for entertainment purposes only. None of the content is medical advice or financial advice.

Special thanks to Tim Wright aka CoLD SToRAGE for his permission to use the song Operatique.

Transcript

0:29

Welcome to episode 66 of I Hate Talking. Hi everyone. So we had a relatively in-depth conversation the last two episodes, so, and it was, uh, I guess of a more serious tone, so we'll switch it up for this episode and maybe make it a little bit more lighthearted or maybe we'll get into some more serious topics. We'll see. OK. So today's word or phrase in light of that is the word roambeau. OK. So care to explain to our listeners what Rochambeau is? I've heard it before. I can't even place it in a context right now. It just sounds like gibberish. So it's another name for rock paper scissors. OK. Hm. So it has an interesting etymology that is widely debated. There is a theory because this game actually originated in China and then became popular in Japan and other Asian countries that it has been around for a very long time and that there was a gentleman that was of French descent that was involved in the revolutionary War. In the US and that gentleman's name was Rochambeau, and that he would actually play this game in order to reach critical battlefield decisions. Like with his commanders? Yes, I think that is the theory that if there was a decision to be made and there was maybe disagreement among the different leaders of the army that they would play rock paper scissors or in the modern vernacular Rochambeau to come to a final conclusion on what they were going to do. Wow, it's like the colloquial like. Short end of the stick, right? When you draw the sticks and you get the short one, so then like you lose. It's kind of like that, like if you lost that rock paper scissors, your army had to go battle or something. I suppose so. It could be also not only a decision being made, but also who is going to carry out the orders and the loser would be the one that was saddled with taking that responsibility and It may not have been a very comfortable decision for them because they were being sent into battle. Yeah, interesting. That is a nice story, but according to the website World Rock Paper Scissors Association, that story is not true. Oh, OK. So it is an urban legend. It is a common urban legend that is associated to the etymology of Robeau, but according to the official association of rock paper scissors for the entire world, that is an incorrect belief that that is the source of the word roammbeau. OK, so the world leaders in rock paper scissors, first, do they acknowledge that it's the same thing as Rochambeau? Yes, they do associate the word Rochambeau with rock paper scissors. So according to the World Rock, Paper Scissors Association, the first mention of RPS for short, can be found in the Chinese book Wuzaru. I'm butchering that. Um, in the Ming Dynasty, it claims to go back to the Han dynasty in 206 BC. So maybe Jesus even played rock paper scissors. That's true. So, yeah, they go on in this particular article that they do note that Roshammbeau. May have some origins to the gentleman in the revolutionary War Rochambeau, but that it is a loose connection and they actually cite that this particular word first showed up in the West Coast in particularly Northern California. And they don't really know why and really no one knows why because for all intents and purposes, it basically just pops out of nowhere, this particular term Roambeau. It does seem that the World Rock Paper Scissors Association does seem to subscribe to that etymology being related to the Chinese and Japanese history. Because the Japanese term for rock paper scissors is Jean Ken pan, so perhaps people that were intermingling with English and Japanese came to use that particular phrase Rochambeau as sort of the Americanized version of Janan Pan. OK, yeah, I can see that sounds similar. So whatever the origin of the term Rochambeau is, whether that is from the French gentleman Rochambeau or this basically first appearance within the American West and perhaps it's relation to some of the Japanese terminology. We do have a first usage that is known. And it was in a particular book published in Oakland, California on a variety of games in 1936. So that appears to be the earliest known written usage of the word roshambo. What is interesting to note is that The modern spelling is R O S H A M B O, but actually in that book it used for the bow instead of BO was B E A U, which does match the exact spelling of the French gentleman. So maybe there's even some relationship there, but we don't really know. OK. Now, like we've already alluded to, the game rock paper scissors is very, very old and came from Chinese and spread throughout other Asian countries like Japan. And this particular topic came up because one of our kids was debating with others the effectiveness of paper to beat rock. So that also led us to do some research on the history of the actual elements that are used in rock paper scissors and the original was a rock and scissors but not paper. OK, well, what else, what else was it? Wait, let me see if I can guess then cause I don't know. Cause paper covers rock, but scissors cut paper, so that follows. It'd be something scissors cuts. That defeats Iraq. I don't know. OK, I give up. So the hand signal in Chinese culture during that time was not for paper, but it was actually for cloth. OK. So the closed fist for rock would have been the same. The two fingers extended for scissors would have been the same, but the flattened palm would not have represented paper in that time. It would have represented cloth, and I guess that's a little bit perhaps stronger than paper. If you have cloth, you can bundle up a stone or keep it from moving. But that is the exact reason that rock paper scissors has changed and evolved to use paper, but originally it would have been cloth. But why have they changed to paper? That I could not find, I'm not sure, maybe paper is maybe a more common modern material. There also is a theory that it was originally paper and that. If there was a major decision to be made that that decision would be written down on paper, presented to the Chinese emperor, and if they placed the paper under the rock, that meant that they were overruling the decision. But if they placed the paper on top of the rock, that means that they were agreeable to the decision. But again, don't have a lot of conclusive evidence that that was a particular source of how rock paper scissors came about. Hm, OK. So, our child that was having this debate came up with an alternative where it would be fire, plant and water because fire beats a plant, it burns it down. And Water beats fire because it will put out the fire and then basically, the plant is superior to water because it will drink all the water. OK. So that was his alternative to the fact that paper does not make much sense in the rock paper scissors game. Yeah, and I've lost every time cause I can't remember the hand signals. They're slightly different than rock paper scissors, and I just get caught up every time. Because you don't remember how to make the hand signals, so you're like just doing something else completely,-- or-- because you're trying to have a strategy and it's not working. No, no strategy, just like I forget what what is and then I end up with rock, which They all say is fire. And cause it's similar. So as an aside, it made sense that rocks were around for a long time and would have been present at the time of the invention of rock paper scissors, like you said, in 200 BC, uh, some estimates go back as far as 3000 to 4000 years. And it made sense also that paper or cloth would be around in that particular instance as well. But I did have to fact check whether scissors were around that long because I wasn't sure. I figured scissors maybe were more of a recent invention, but that is actually not the case. Scissors also go back 3000 to 4000 years with some particular artifacts being found from Mesopotamia and Egypt that were dated back that far. And then I believe around 100 AD there's even a spring mechanism, scissors that was discovered where the two blades that have that central pivot point actually have a spring in between so that they spring back open after the person is done cutting. Man, that's so cool. So not a hard stretch to believe that scissors would have been around at the time of the invention of this game, rock paper scissors, or more colloquial known as roshambo. And do you know that there's like statistically ways to win rock paper scissors? I have heard this. I don't particularly know the strategies myself, and I think some of it has to do if you're doing multiple rounds because there's not necessarily an exact strategy on the first round, but there definitely is a strategy on your second round based on what the results were from the first round and what the different people played, right. Yeah. So I get this from the YouTuber, Mark Grover. He did a study on it. We like to watch him and all his science experiments, and he explained that, yeah, the very first one is pretty random, but after that, you have a higher chance of following his plan and winning, statistically, because as we know the phrase, rock, paper, scissors, our brain, if we did rock first, Our next one, statistically is paper. And then after that, it's scissors, rock, paper, scissors. And in our brains, it goes to that. So if your opponent does paper that round, statistically, they're more likely to do scissors next round. So you can do rock and beat them. I mean, it's not a guarantee, but yeah, statistically, if you have 33% chance, right? You're actually gonna go a little bit more towards that way if you remember. So, if you want to win, go backwards. If they did paper, do rock. So just think instead of rock, paper, scissors, it's like scissors, paper, rock, right? That's true. And I think the strategy that I was aware of would have been that. Most people by default will change what they're doing. So therefore, they probably would go forward or backwards. So in some instances it may actually be better to play the exact same item that you played in the preceding round because if they're going forwards or backwards, your particular strategy is somewhat assuming that they are going to change something. So I think that also is a Typical thought process for people playing is that they're going to change whatever their item is that they're using, so you can use that accordingly to perhaps beat them as well. Mhm. So, and then, of course, all these strategies don't work if everybody learns the strategies and now we're telling all our listeners, so there will be more informed rock, paper, scissors, players, and now you'll know and maybe others that you play with will know as well and it will basically break the particular strategy because everybody knows the strategy, right? Because if I know that you're going to do the strategy, then I'm going to do the reverse. And then I'll win, and that's a new strategy, that's complicated. And then I'll do the reverse as well, and then we'll be right back where we started. There you go. So, like we said at the start, a bit of a more lighthearted episode, I guess also a bit of a shorter episode, but nonetheless, if you did enjoy this episode, do like, share and subscribe, and maybe you can employ some of these strategies on rock paper scissors, or perhaps you have your own ideas on the etymology of Roshammbeau or the origins of rock paper scissors in general, you can always send us an email, a text or leave us a comment. Sounds good. So, from your friends at I hate Talking, until next time, remember, it is only through talking that we begin the journey to understanding.