Polemics on Morals, Morale, and Worldviews

 
Word of the Episode: Polemical

• Definition (Oxford): Expressing or constituting a strong critical attack or controversial opinion.
• Etymology: From Greek polemos (“war”) → polemikós (“warlike/hostile”).
• Discussion:
  • Related to debate and controversy, not to Ptolemaic (Claudius Ptolemy’s geocentric astronomy).
  • Hosts joked about confusing the two since they sound similar, imagining a “Ptolemaic polemic.”
  • Takeaway: polemical ≠ Ptolemaic, but both useful as play on words.

Connection to Past Episodes

• Revisited pontificate: noted they’re now noticing frequent (often incorrect) uses of the term in culture and academics.
• Bridge to discussion: morals vs. morale can easily become “polemical topics” depending on viewpoints.

Main Discussion: Morals vs. Morale

• Her perspective:
  • As an adult, her morals (e.g., Christian faith, honesty, ethics) are “locked in,” unlikely to change.
  • Thus, she is more affected by other people’s morale (positive or negative energy) in everyday life.
  • With children, morals matter more since they are still shaping beliefs and behaviors—she prefers surrounding them with adults who share her moral framework.
• His perspective:
  • Defines morals as a “systematized pattern of acceptable behavior” (actions/ethics), distinct from worldview (beliefs about God, humanity, existence).
  • Argues even people with different worldviews can reach the same moral behaviors (e.g., both an atheist and a Christian can refrain from cutting in line).
  • For him, morals take priority over morale, since behavior aligns society regardless of mood or energy.

Illustrative Debates & Anecdotes

• Examples:
  • Trash pickup — Is it moral duty to clean up? What if someone rationalizes leaving trash as “providing jobs”?
  • Grocery/self-checkout — Some claim it’s moral to avoid kiosks to preserve jobs.
  • Baseball/foul ball incident & golf ball souvenir — personal anecdotes about moral codes, property, and differing interpretations.
• Reflection: disagreements often reveal overlap of moral codes vs. worldviews and how they shape actions.

Conclusions

• She: In her daily life, morale matters more (shapes her energy and interactions). With young children, morals come first.
• He: Morals hold higher priority as they define acceptable action, though morale influences group dynamics.
• Both agree: ideally society holds to good morals, which then produces high morale.
• Polemical debates about morals vs. morale show how easily language and worldview shape conflict.

Other Notes

• Joking sidebars:
  • Don’t be “polemical” if you want good morale.
  • Don’t be “Ptolemaic” (thinking the world revolves around you).
  • Musings about Mars missions and abandoned past sign-ups.
  • Reminder of abandoning planned 3I/Atlas probes.

Tone & Takeaway:

• Playful but reflective exploration of language lessons (polemical, Ptolemaic, pontificate) tied to deeper life discussions (morals, morale, worldview, behavior).
• Closing mantra: disagreements aside, “through talking we begin the journey to understanding.”

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Any views expressed on this podcast are those solely of the hosts and is for entertainment purposes only. None of the content is medical advice or financial advice.

Special thanks to Tim Wright aka CoLD SToRAGE for his permission to use the song Operatique.

Transcript

I Hate Talking: 0:29

Welcome to episode 78 of I Hate Talking. Hi everyone. So we, I guess we'll continue on what we were talking about in our last episode with the importance and priority of morals versus morale. And before we do, however, we'll have our word or phrase of the episode. Yeah, so this may be slightly related, or maybe not, but I was thinking about, as we were talking about last episode, morale and morals and what's more important and what do I value more, and the word Cole Mickel came up. Do you know what that word means? I think I'm saying it right. I've only ever read it. Does it have a P T O L E M I C? No, no, I'm polemical. Polemical polemical. Polemical. I don't think I am familiar with this particular word. OK. So, for your favorite Oxford language dictionary, it says expressing or constituting a strong critical attack or controversial opinion about someone or something. Polemical. So a strong attack about a topic, a critical attack or controversial opinion. Hm, interesting. So it makes sense because poll is the beginning of it, and often when something is polarized, right, it would be the opposite of So polemical would mean like a strong opinion against someone or something. So it has nothing to do with Claudius Ptolemy. I don't know. You can, uh, inform us more about that. Well, that was the word that came to my mind when you said polemic. Was Telemy because of the silent P in the beginning. But I don't think it has anything to do with that because that has to do with astronomy and math based on an Earth-centered or geocentric model of the universe. Hm. No, also because I don't think the P is silent in the beginning of this word. You're correct, it's not polemic. I can see it when you're looking at it, maybe you or when I'm pronouncing it, you would assume it is. But the etymology, I don't know. You usually look up the etymology, so maybe I'm doing this wrong, but from my sources on the great Google, it says the etymology comes from the Greek word polemyos, meaning warlike or hostile, and also from the word pomos, which means war. Indeed, which would make sense that it would be a Greek word because they were probably more infatuated with war than those that were speaking Latin in the day, and even their particular debates and things that they were discussing and arguing and debating on things that used words were quite warlike, I guess, because they were trying to prove a point. So it does make sense. This would be a Greek word and not a Latin word, polemic. Right, cause even as our children are getting older, and they're reading more what we'd call classic books, they're even picking up on that, like the words and the terms are much more war oriented than our modern day English stories we tell. So I think that was part of the culture. And it just reminded me of what we were talking about before, whether something may be polemic, because I think morals and morale can very much be polemic, depending on what side you're standing on. That's true. So I guess people could find polemics sort of as a polemic. Yeah, because, and I, this is all said in love and in like trying to see your side of it too, is I feel like often the culture you came from and your personality tends to be more, not war-like, so polemics probably not the right word, but definitely more critical. Cause you wanna improve everything, so you're always looking at it with a critical eye, cause it can always be improved. Where I come from the polar opposite. And I want to always look on the best intentions of people and smooth things over. So I think as a couple, as a whole, that works out well. Because we're both sides, and then hopefully we come in the middle. But sometimes it's exhausting for both of us because you're looking at it critically. I'm saying, hey, let's think about this in the best intentions. And so I think it's a lot of work for both of us. That's true. So I think as an aside, the reason that I was thinking of Ptolemy is there must have been some sort of play on words or something. That I'm thinking of because the particular viewpoint that the Earth is the center of the universe was known as Ptolemy, which was named after this gentleman, Claudius Ptolemy, and if you hold to that particular view, then you are said to be related or relating your viewpoint as a Ptolemaic viewpoint. So, I think somewhere in the recesses of my memory, there must have been some sort of Ptolemaic polemic that was some sort of like play on words or funny story, but I mean they sound good together. So what you're saying is when you talk to an individual who likes things their way, or in our vernacular would say, the universe revolves around them and their wants, we could just say stop being so Ptolemaic. I suppose so. -- And -- that's pretty pom polemic, is that what you're saying? And that would be polemaic because it's causing warlike or dissension. No, just polemic. It's not an exact one for one rhyming word, but I guess you could use that particular phraseology or maybe then you would be pontificating. Right. If you say it fast, I feel like a lot of people would like, it's pretty arrogant. What is he talking about? Uh, and then just hope that they don't push you further on it. Precisely, but If they do, now we know something more about the word polemic and Ptolemaic, and hopefully you, our listeners have perhaps learned something new as well about both of these words that are not related at all, but Maybe in some short story or play on words actually are, but. Not directly, right, and going back to what you're talking about pontificating, I know it's definitely that, what's that concept called where like, is it just bias or whatnot, like when you start noticing, like you wanna buy a red car, so you see all the red cars on the road. What's that called again? Frequency bias. So that's probably what it is, but several times since recording that episode, I've heard people use the word pontificate. And several of them, the most educated, there's a professor I listened to, and he uses it properly. But a lot of other people don't. So I was like, oh, look, obviously he knows the word as he is this prestigious professor. So good for him. And then all these other people used it how we initially used it. So that's just been interesting to notice that word is used a lot more frequently than I've realized before. And most often used incorrectly, it sounds like. Yeah, well, at least in my unprofessional experience, yes, indeed. So polemic, I guess then we will launch into a critical attack on whether morals or morale is important. Is that what you're getting at? I see. So, I think you alluded to the fact that both are important, but you do seem to prefer perhaps morale over morals, especially for your own personal experience and how you enjoy the world and experience the world. Is that a fair statement? Um, yes and no. So, As a person, as an adult who I feel like my morals are pretty locked in there, some stuff has changed over the years, and I'm sure will change in the future, but as a whole, what I'd say is my core morals are pretty ingrained, and I would really be surprised if any of those kind of things changed. So, as a person, I'm more impacted by the morale. Because someone else's morals doesn't necessarily impact me, because I'm so like, this is the key. Again, there's stuff that nuances, but the key points I don't think are gonna change. So their personality, their morale impacts me more than their core beliefs. Does that make sense? I suppose so because you are committed to your own morals. So even if they have differing morals, you will perhaps emphasize the morale over the morals because yours are set and theirs are set. So therefore, the only thing that really is. Flexible in this situation is the morale. Right? OK, so an extreme example for my personal story would be that I am a Christian, and that is a very strong key moral I have. If I'm talking to someone who is not a Christian, and then again, maybe that's their key moral. I know that, and it depends on their morale. Like if they're a nice person. I'm gonna get along with them really well still. And we're gonna know that we disagree, but we can still have a dinner and be kind. But if that person's morale is very negative or contrary to me. And I'm not gonna be able to have a positive dinner with them. I suppose so. It's interesting to note that in my mind when I'm trying to speak the word morality, that I'm actually now associating it with morale and not moral, because when you say morality, it actually sounds more like morale than moral, but I guess that goes back to our previous episode that they added the E, moral and morality because of the ITY. You're actually extending that AL sound a bit. So am I messing it up or just is more confusing? I think it's just a detriment of the English language in terms of the pronunciation that morality actually refers to morals, but sounds more like morale because of the way that the pronunciation works. Yeah, it's confusing, but if I was gonna like go further on that, that's just for me personally. When I think about my children who I think are much more moldable at this age, I think that putting them with adults. With similar morals is more important to me. Because I think that they're still being shaped and deciding what they believe. And I want that kind of influence on them. I want both. I want good morale, I want upbeat, positive people, but I, more importantly, want people that have similar morals to me to be shaping and influencing them. Is that fair to say? Does that distinction make sense? Yes, because you want them to have good morality. I don't think morality is a word though. I know, but that's how it should be pronounced based on what I just said. It's not morality, it's morality. All right, so I, I challenge you to start using that word instead. Yeah, I think people just think I'm dumb. But -- Then -- you can say it's because we are concerned with morals, not morale. There you go. All right, so tell me your opinions. So as you're speaking, it does seem that morals are the higher priority. But you're presupposing that I think the people that we associate will have the same morals, so therefore, Morale will become more of the differentiator in terms of your experience and who we associate with. Which is probably true for where we live within the United States that that is going to be the case. I think if you were confronted with perhaps somebody that had a completely different set of morals. And to take it to the extreme or like trying to harm you for your particular moral code that you would prioritize morals over morale. They could be very happy doing that and trying to harm you, but That would be a particular scenario where you're going to emphasize and prioritize morals over morale. Yeah, I agree. So this is definitely a caveat of my specific, like I said, not even about the kids, but my specific interpretation or experience, because yeah, most of the people I see and interact with more than just a passing hi bye kind of thing. have very similar morals to me. There are people that don't, and I do interact with them. But not on a daily basis necessarily, but. In a significant way. And so when I'm dealing with them in this a significant way, I'd rather them have good morale and have it be a positive thing because I don't think we're gonna necessarily hatch out changes. And so knowing that we're going into this interaction. Differing Let's have good moral morale. Oh, see, now I'm confused, good morale about it, cause we're not gonna change each other's opinions. But this is a rarity, it's not a daily conversation I have. So I think maybe I have a broader definition of morals than what you're describing, cause it sounds like you're describing morals as like a System of belief and values. Versus what I would sort of consider morals as a systematized pattern of acceptable behavior. What do you mean by that? Cause yeah, I think I'm definitely thinking like morals, like don't lie, don't steal. God is the creator. Like those are my morals. So what do you think when you say the word morals? I mean, I have more and more others, but that's just so I think those would still be within the category of morals. Perhaps not the belief system. I don't necessarily know if God as creator would necessarily be a quote unquote moral because it's not necessarily related to behavior. Maybe it will drive certain aspects of your behavior, but for all intents and purposes, it's not necessarily a behavior. I think morals are a behavior though. Yeah, but God as creator does not necessarily -- or -- beliefs. That's just I think that morals are beliefs. No, I don't think so. I think morals are a systematized pattern of acceptable behavior. That one holds Do we have to go back to our previous words? I think we need to go back and redefine it because I think it is. OK. So just a little side note, as I'm homeschooling our youngest, he's learning the alphabet. And every sound comes with a story, like a moral story, about like, don't take, you know, like, don't push in front of the line, be willing to wait your turn. Or don't take what doesn't belong to you or be truthful. Like, it's always those kind of stories that have a lot of words with that sound in it. So I would say those are morals, like those are his beliefs that were instilling in him to wait your turn, don't shove in front of the line. But you will be rewarded if you wait. That's a moral. But that's a belief that we have that we're instilling in him, right? Yes, but it's still based on action and what one does. So, to quote again the second definition of moral from Oxford Language Dictionary, it says, quote, a person's standards of behavior or beliefs concerning what is and is not acceptable for them to do. So all the beliefs. And all the standards are based on doing, not necessarily beliefs in general about particular concepts or theology or anything like that. I guess that gets really nuanced because I would argue. That my beliefs in theology impacts everything I do. Yes, I think then you're probably talking more about worldview than morals. OK. So you think worldview is different than morals? Absolutely. How so? Cause I am not sure. I'm not convinced, so convince me. So, worldview, to put simply, is how you view the world. It is going to be your particular preconceived biases or your preconceived beliefs about how the world functions, perhaps even beliefs about the nature of man and humankind, the nature and even existence of God. The particular historical things that the earth would have been subjected to through its creation or existence and things of that nature, that will be your worldview, and I do agree that your worldview will drive your beliefs and potentially influence your morals, but. If your particular worldview is that there is no God and the earth was created through evolution and the Big Bang and all these things. And yet Society says that it is not right to cut in line. Your moral code is that. You wait in line versus somebody that has a worldview that believes as God is creator, and the earth was created by him, and he still reigns over it. That likewise you can have a moral code that says that it is wrong to cut in line, so you could still arrive at the same moral code even though your worldview is completely opposite. OK. I mean, that sounds good. Trying to think. What my changes would be on that. I think that one is based on cultural or like acceptance, maybe the morale of the group. You don't wanna cut in line cause you know that that's gonna make those around you angry or unfair. Versus you don't cut in line because you think of others as more important than yourself. That's true. That will drive perhaps the Intrinsic nature of how you derive your moral code. Because at some point you have to arrive at a moral code of some kind, and I think that A lot of ways that perhaps people arrive at a moral code is through societal norms versus absolute truth, but nonetheless, they still have a moral code that is based on a systematized pattern of acceptable behavior. However they get there. OK. So you didn't answer. Oh, go ahead. I didn't answer what? What you think. So I think that taking this broader view of morals and the definition thereof, that it's simply a systematized pattern of acceptable behavior. That I will prioritize that over morale. But again, I think that's more around behavior, whether that be societal norms or particular things that I see as duty that people should do. That if there's a piece of trash on the ground, perhaps I will not be bothered with it, and I will have quote unquote better morale if I can just go about my business and do my own thing. But that it is everyone's duty. And proper moral code to pick up the trash and throw it away. And this is a very simple example, but I think the thing can also be applied to any other general concepts where there's a particular duty to do something. That that would fall under the moral code that I would hold to, that you should do those things, even if it is frustrating or a detriment to morale. And that if you are in a group of people that have the same moral code, that in fact, your morale may be high when you are all doing your duty. Yeah, it's like let's all just have good morals and then everyone has good morale. Would be the ideal, right? I suppose so, but the fact is that people have different moral ethics, and perhaps there's somebody that does not consider it morally required to pick up trash, and therefore they are still living by their moral code because it should have been the person that originally obtained that particular item that they should have thrown it in the trash. So they are following their own moral code, so to speak. Even though that may conflict with societal norms or my personal moral code, OK, here's an extreme example. Say you're at a baseball game. And somebody throws their trash on the ground, you're like, oh, my moral says that's so bad. Clean it up, or I guess I'll have to go clean it up for them. Where that person's like, hey, I'm giving an employee a job. If I do this, if we're sweeping up after ourselves, then they don't need to hire someone. So I'm giving this employee a job so he can get a salary, so he can pay for his wife and his 6 kids he has at home and maybe one's in the hospital because they're sick and I'm giving them extra overtime. So extra salary to pay for their child's medical bills, right? Wouldn't that be a great moral to help that individual who needs the finances versus just picking up after somebody else. So I would say it would be good morals if you specifically knew that was the exact scenario and were able to give them a few dollars to help. So you'd rather clean up the trash and then just donate if that was the exact scenario, but I don't think that would be the exact scenario for many people. No, but that could be an argument, but theoretical situations are not an argument for. Violating moral code. But you're saying this is the person's moral code because of these theoretical situations, right? He's helping this person. I don't think that's a very good moral code then. Well, what about all the people that are like, I'm not gonna bag my groceries at Walmart or use the kiosk at McDonald's because I'm taking away jobs. Yeah, I guess that's their own moral code, but in some situations, you would have to just vote, so to speak, by not going there because in some instances, that's the only option you have now. I thought you're going to go a completely different direction with the moral code on whether it's right to demand a baseball to be returned to you or not. That was, that was a couple of weeks ago. I forgot about that. I already forgot about it. -- Oh -- man. Or is it proper moral code to steal a golf ball from a mini golf course because you don't put it into the prize machine? We almost broke up over that. We did. I kept it as a souvenir cause I thought it would be sweet to remember the state. And then Adam almost was dumped me for it. And I think you left your soda cup in the bathroom that same time or that was around the same time, and I was like, you need to throw that away. I don't know, why didn't you throw it away then? I don't think that was an in-person experience. I think you did that while we were on the phone or How did you know I did that? I don't know what you're talking about that one. I do remember the golf ball though. I don't know. I don't know. It's a fuzzy memory. So, I guess the point is, don't steal golf balls and pick up your trash. I guess that's my, that's my moral code. That's, that's what it boils down to. Don't steal golf balls and pick up your trash. I feel like I've got higher morals than that though. But we should leave it at that before we get into it. -- But -- I don't think we necessarily even have arrived at a consistent definition of morals. Because I think my definition is simply a systematized pattern of acceptable actions, where you have maybe a higher belief system in mind when it comes to a moral code. I do have a higher belief system in general. Wait, what do you mean? So explain that more so. Well, I think you're overlapping worldview and Moralty. Yes, but I would argue they have to. Right. And I would say that they don't, that you can have a strong system of acceptable actions without a higher belief. The society or your own person or the benefit of others, more of a utilitarian view of the world, you will actually arrive at the same conclusions, even though you have a different worldview. Possibly Well, that's my polemic. See, there you go. Isn't that a good word? I can use it now. So instead of saying stop being so critical or stop being so. Pontificatious. Yeah, you can just say you're being really, -- what's the word -- polemical, polemical. Don't be so polemical. Stop being so polemical. -- You -- need to have better morals. No, not necessarily. If you're being too polemical, then you're not violating a moral code. You're messing up morale. You're not messing up morals. I see. If you're being really polemical, the morale in the room will go down. But not necessarily the morals. Well, I guess the most important thing is not to be Ptolemamaical, Ptolemaical, like the world revolving around you, right? Yeah, the sun is the center of the universe. -- All -- right, we can agree on that unless you're going to the moon, and then it's actually easier to consider the moon as the center of the universe for all the mathematical calculations. Oh really? OK, really quickly, is someone going to Mars? Is that a true thing? I keep seeing this stuff about this girl who's like in her twenties and she's training to go to Mars and she's not gonna return. Is that real or not? They did that like 2 decades ago. They had some people selected for Mars missions and then it never came to fruition. So I don't know. Hopefully those people got other jobs and we're not still waiting around, but it would not surprise me. I've not heard this myself, that they were doing that, but it would not surprise me because they have done that in the past. My algorithm really wants me to believe this, and I'm not sure it's true or not. And I also haven't taken too much interest in finding out if it's true. Well, I certainly know they're not planning any manned missions to 3I Atlas, and in fact, I heard they are even canceling some of the autonomous missions. Huh. So that is our polemic on morals and morale. And you, our listeners can let us know if you agree with one of us versus the other. I think we align on some things, but maybe not all things. So we can continue this discussion as needed. And certainly feel free to leave a comment, send us an email, send us a text message, or perhaps there is something that you would like to hear about or a particular word or phrase that has been on your mind that we can talk about as well. Mhm. So from your friends at I Hate Talking, until next time, remember, it is only through talking that we begin the journey to understanding.