Conclusions on Blue, When Does Christmas Start, the Value of Thanksgiving Day, and Day Light Savings

 In this richly layered episode, the hosts follow up on unanswered questions from last week’s exploration of blue. They start by confirming what Russians actually call their beloved “Blue” cats—Синий русский (Siniy russkiy)—and dive into why Puritan “blue laws” might have literally come from blue paper or blue clothing. From there, the couple unpacks theories on how “blue” came to mean both “religious strictness” and “indecency,” tracing its tangled linguistic roots through New England idioms and 19th‑century slang.

The new word of the week, crèche, opens a thoughtful discussion on the Latin, French, and Greek origins of the manger scene and how baby Jesus’ “feeding trough” evolved into Christmas iconography. The episode closes on a spirited debate about when the holiday season should really begin, whether Thanksgiving deserves more respect, and even if daylight savings time should be abolished for good.

Keywords: Russian Blue cats, blue laws, etymology of “blue,” crèche, Christmas decorations, holiday culture, language history.

Transcript

I Hate Talking: 0:29

Welcome to episode 81 of I Hate Talking. Hi everyone. So there are a few topics that we did not fully conclude on from our last episode in terms of the color blue, with perhaps what the Russians call a blue Russian cat breed, nor any particular findings on how blue is used in a way that means puritanical or overly religious or how blue is used to mean off color. So we'll do that before our official word or phrase of the episode and our topic. So stay tuned for that. We did want to address a couple of these things that we, like I said, did not come to a conclusion on last time. So the first and perhaps easiest is the Blue Russian, which is the cat breed, and they call that the Sinoy Russki. OK, did it come from Russia initially? Yes, -- this particular cat -- came from Russia. And that is the particular shade of blue or hue of blue that is the dark blue in Russian versus the light blue. So it literally means dark blue Russian. But why is the cat named that? Cause they're not blue. In certain lights they appear bluish in color, -- I -- guess, cause they're gray. If you don't have never seen one before, they're like a, not even a dark gray, what do you say like a true gray color, bluish gray, -- I -- would say maybe. OK, well, maybe that's what if I'm Russian, I would think that was the color blue. Well, if you were in Russian, you would have a greater -- attenuation to the color blue because of the different words for -- blue. Yes, I would say it's just a pure gray. So Russians are just better at blue and identification of blue. So I think we should just trust them when they say this cat is blue. I like their tea and I like their cats, for sure. Tea? Yeah, you don't like tea. I don't, but I do like when I was in Russia, I would go to tea at this elderly lady's house and I really liked whatever she put in her tea. I didn't speak Russian, so I didn't quite understand what you put in it. But she didn't like that I was a social worker, because she told me that in Russia, they don't need social workers. That's true. So. You know, take that for what it means, but I enjoyed whatever we, that's why we, our teapot is Russian for her, yeah. All right, go on. So we have the Russian Blue cat, which is our kitty, that's 12 years old, and go on, the next thing. So the other one was blue as it relates to puritanical law, overly religious, moral rigidity. Yeah, I've never heard that before. OK, so elaborate on that one since you studied it. So this one does not have any particular conclusive evidence. It's sort of like our on the fly episode where there are some reasonable and Seemingly legitimate explanations, but none that are firmly proven. So this one does seem to have at least the locale established that it came from the New England area of the Americas in the probably 18th century, it seems. And it is theorized that perhaps it is because the Puritans were very strict in their religiosity and they wore blue as sort of their color of clothing. And therefore, their rules were the blue rules because they were Puritans and wore blue. There's another theory that states that the rules for conduct, especially on the Sabbath, were written on blue paper, so then, therefore, those were blue laws. Is that where the term possibly comes from for blue laws? It is, they do definitely seem related, that this moral rigidity and blue laws as it relates to conduct on Sundays are somehow related, whether that came from Puritan's clothing color or perhaps the paper on which these rules were printed is how we got blue. Yeah, one day we'll have to talk about that, because I had never heard blue law before. I grew up on the west coast, and we got married and we moved to rural Pennsylvania. I learned about blue law, like that was not a thing I knew existed, and I'd like to learn more about that sometime. Indeed. So California doesn't have blue law. Yeah, about, I guess they're about as far as away they can get from New England. And then it also is theorized to perhaps be a derogatory term for blue and these people's way of life that it was overbearing and gloomy and therefore it was blue because it was saddening to, to follow these moralistic edicts that they set forward. I buy that, but it's just so funny that's so different. When I think of someone saying that's so blue, I think inappropriate. So it's funny they're so extreme. Indeed. And then there's quite a few theories on blue as it relates to off color. There are some that theorize that blue as off color was in direct opposition to blue laws and things like that. -- So -- almost as like it would make the blue mad kind of thing. OK. That does not have a lot of support. -- That -- is very, I buy that one, very narrowly held theory. Then there are some things with particularly swearing. That it is related to turning the air blue. So if somebody's using inappropriate language that they would be turning the air blue and therefore that is blue remarks or blue content. What do they mean by turning the air blue, like sucking all the air out of the room kind of thing like. Shocking No, I think it would be, maybe, I don't know. I didn't actually research that particular phrase. I've heard that phrase before. I don't know where the particular etymology of that phrase is from. We're gonna be busy. So maybe we'll have a follow-up for next episode. And then the third theory is that it is related to the clothing that blue collar workers wear, and they would perhaps not conduct themselves in the most appropriate manner and therefore anything that a blue collar does would be blue, and that would be sort of the off color, not appropriate for work type jokes and things of that nature. I don't like that one. The most widely held theory and what is actually documented is it's the turn the air blue. OK, I can picture that like shocking, like everyone takes a gasp, and you're blue cause you're not breathing, you're shocked. At the inappropriateness. All right, I'll go with that one, sure. Hm. So, the particular research that I just did on turn the air blue is that this also probably originated in the 1800s, and it's possibly a slang term for like a blue streak where that is related to brimstone and lightning in terms of A blue tinged sky when you are going to be judged for what you're going to do or what you are doing and turning the air blue like Sodom and or having that blue streak kind of thing, yes, OK. So, some potential theories, no specific actual proven etymology on these particular things, but interesting nonetheless, and I think it is pretty definitive that they're not directly related. I think that is one of the theories that they sort of use blue in terms of the off-color as sort of a direct opposition to blue from a moral rigidity, but that is one of the. Least likely theories, so I would hold to that they're probably unrelated and developed completely separately. Yeah, that makes sense, but I like the idea that it's in opposition of it. Perhaps so. I think people, if they're going to designate something as opposition, they're going to choose something that is opposite, so. Red and blue Or something like that, that. It would turn the air red. I guess. Yeah, you're right. At least in modern day, yeah. Well, the 1800s aren't that unmodern. So unmodern. You're right though, relatively, relatively. So, that is our recap and some extra content that we did not get to last time, and now we'll turn our attention to our word or phrase of this episode and our topic as it may or may not relate to that particular word. OK, do you know what the word crush means? Cresh, so C R E S H. No, I'll play with uh Google, how they pronounce it, cause maybe I'm mispronouncing it. Fresh It is CRE. C H E. Crash It's almost like quiche Krish. Almost crash. Well, that's what Google calls it crush. Crush Or crash. It sounds vaguely familiar. Crash, crash. It does sound vaguely familiar. I would not be able to give a definition or etymology. I feel like I have heard or read this word somewhere before, and maybe if I heard it in context, I would be able to derive a general meaning perhaps, but I do not know what the word creche means. All right, well, it is a Latin word. That means crib. And it's in Luke 2. He's talking about Jesus was laid down in the crush. So in Latin, often they'll call a nativity scene a crush. I see. Why wouldn't it be in Greek? I don't know. Well, the New Testament is typically written in Greek. OK. So this would be from like the Roman Church in Latin days when They had the New Testament in Latin, and they were the only ones that could read it, and then they were the purveyors of the crush. It must be because it is the dictionary definition of crush is a model representing the scene of Jesus Christ's birth, displayed in homes or public places at Christmas. It also means a nursery where babies or young children are cared for. Yes, so that does make sense that it would be something related to the iconography of the Roman Church or other religious institutions that perhaps focus on the actual icons rather than the meaning of the creche. Mhm. So what is it in Greek now? I'm curious, what is crib or cresh or Manger in Greek. A ni I can't even, I'm not even gonna pretend to pronounce that. So hopefully you heard that on there. The Greek word for crib in religious context means manger or nativity scene, which we know from baby story Jesus. Well, it's interesting to note that the primary definition of fat me. Or fate me. is manger or feeding trough and crib as the tertiary meaning, so, It's interesting that the Latin word elevates this to the primary meaning of crib. Do you think that goes back to the scripture though, where Jesus was laid in a manger and a feeding trough for animals, and then the Latin took that and like I said, elevated it to the meaning of a crib that we know nowadays. As the baby was laid in the feeding trough. Well, there is the popular Christmas carol Away in a Manger. That talks about a particular thing. That He was away in a manger, no crib for a bed. The little Lord Jesus laid down his sweet head. So, from that particular song, The crib did not exist. There was no crib, there was no crush. It was a fat knee. A feeding trough, right, a manger. So then we ended up taking that term. That's where Jesus was laying when he was born. Yes, well, my point being that perhaps for the specific intent of how that word is used within the New Testament, within Luke chapter 2, that. Perhaps the Greek is more of an apt term because the primary purpose of that particular device was for feeding animals and not a crib, which I think we would typically refer to as Place as a bed for sweet baby's little head and the Latin term co-opts this particular thing and makes that the icon. Yeah So, in certain cultures that elevate Latin, you're saying, they would elevate the word, the feeding trough and turn it into a bed, the creche. Well, I wonder then if there's a Latin term for feeding trough. I don't know. Or did they just replace the word because it made more sense for their sales of nativity sets? I don't know. You're the one that learned Latin, not me. So last night we had a, what, an 8 year old teach us some Latin at an event we were at. Do you remember that? You were there. You might not have been part of the conversation. I think I missed that. He was saying a word and I asked him what it meant, and he was like, it's Latin. I learned that in school. Oh, good for you. Yeah, indeed, so there is a Latin word. Pre espe, that is the word for manger, not crash. So in your research of this particular word, this is the word that is used specifically within the Latin translation of Luke 2. You look it up. You're better looking things up. According to AI, the Latin word in Luke chapter 2 verse 7 is that reesespe. Which is the word. In English, manger. And that ultimately means To eat or chew. So basically the animals would eat or chew their food. At the manger. So, the crush is not specifically used within, according to AI, the Latin translation of Luke. So then where did crush come from? And how did you encounter this particular work? Because I'm not finding it here in Greek and Latin translations of the Bible. So I did not trust AI. And I consulted the Latin Vulgate, and indeed the word manger is this precicipe. No, it's not a recipe or however you pronounce it. So, I think the word crush is interesting. That it means crib and has been used to specifically refer to Jesus' bed in the nativity scene, but It does seem that Greek and Latin agree that The original word was danger. I keep researching this or follow up later. So I guess to finalize this particular topic, we need to at least check the etymology of the word crush. We may not know exactly how it came to be used as a nativity scene, but we have our possibilities with perhaps that came about with the way that the churches were promoting the nativity scene. According to Merriam-Webster, it says that in the 1300s, the substitution of crash for manger probably wouldn't have raised any eyebrows back when the spelling was improvised, and several different words and spellings included cratch, rash, rish, and creche. Were used to describe a holding feed or livestock. To identify a manger where Jesus was laid. By the late 18th century, creche, which followed the French and now sometimes spelt without the accent mark, had displayed those older forms of the word that had lost the former manger meaning, coming to refer instead to represent the nativity scene itself. That's what I get when I look it up. What do you get? Yeah, something similar. I do not find any Latin roots of this, that this was actually originally a French word and may go back to Germanic languages. But creche is a French word that originally meant manger, crib, or stall, so that makes sense that that would not be in the original Greek translations of the New Testament or the Latin Vulgate, cause crush was never The Latin word And that perhaps it does go back to Germanic languages. With words that mean crib. Right, so in my quick research, maybe I'm wrong about the lad, but that's what it did say. But you're right. Everything I find as I follow up more, it's French. Talking about can never get away from the French words. It seems like we always run into those in the words that we choose or are asked to research. Maybe we'll just go to France one day and do a live podcast there. Perhaps so, and we can just leave our kids at the creche. That's right. So the reason I was looking up these words was because, one, I feel like you're maybe in an oppositional mood, and so. Do you know what happens in 2 months and 2 days from when this podcast drops? Well, probably it's gonna be Christmas, Christmas Day. Christmas Day, indeed. So in that spirit, I wanna talk about when is too early to decorate or for Christmas or sing Christmas songs. I feel like we've talked about this before. Have we not? I don't know. Maybe we, I have for sure because we don't agree. Maybe I think Christmas tide, not time, was one of our episodes, but I think that was mainly more focused on when will Christmas end. So now you're flipping that around and asking when can Christmas begin? Yeah. I feel like we maybe we touched on that, but maybe not fully. So, my default stance is that Thanksgiving needs to be celebrated and respected, and then after that, you can begin on the Christmas festivities. So I looked it up, I couldn't get exact estimates or realistic ones cause they vary, cause I wanted to look at what most people say, cause you're right, I feel like the majority do say. Any day after Thanksgiving is fair game. If you didn't care. I already have a tree. And I already have my lights on the house. So I think we vary, very differently in that. That's true, you already do have lights up around the house, though, they are like yellow and browns, and I guess that -- that's -- fall. That's fall, but in your mind you don't think of them as Christmas lights at all? No, cause they have leaves next to them. I see. If it's leaves, it's fall, and yellow lights, that's definitely fall. White or green and red, that is Christmas. I'm also a fan of Christmas trees that were alive or previously alive, and to have a real tree, Christmas tree in your home for 2+ months seems a bit dangerous. Yeah, that seems dangerous. Yes, you are a big fan of real trees. I think we've only in our life had one year. In our marriage, we've had, we've been married for over 16 years now. One year we had a fake tree, and I think this year we're probably gonna have a fake tree because of certain lifestyle choices, right? So, how do you feel about that then? I think in the year that we did not have a real tree, we did still have like real pine boughs. And some branches and things like that. So we've always had fake trees in different parts of the house, cause I just love decorating. And that year, it wasn't feasible or realistic for us to have a real one. So we do have artificial trees. And we're just gonna make an artificial tree, our real tree this year, and that's what we did that year as well. But you got sad. So that was my choice that year back then. That was my choice for certain circumstances we were in and finances, yada yada. So I made the choice, let's not buy a real one. We have artificial trees and I could tell you were sad. So I did go to the store and I bought a really nice real life reef. And that's what we had for the pine scent. Correct, yes, that's what I'm thinking of, so, so this year, do you think you're gonna be sad? We've already discussed, let's not buy a real tree. We have artificials and because of circumstances, it makes more sense this year. Do you think when the time comes you'll be sad at that choice. Perhaps maybe we can go visit some locations that have real pine trees as their decorations, and that will be sufficient. Just to smell it or to bring some home. You had to visit it and smell it and enjoy -- the presence -- of a, would you want like a real-life reef like before, or Costco sometimes has some garland that's -- real -- pine. Well, it's almost sounds like you're trying to sell me that we should get a real tree right now. No, I'm the one that's anti-real tree. Indeed. So, I don't know. I suppose my mind has not been on Christmas, so I have not given any mental capacity to thinking about that and whether a real tree will be necessary or not, or some substitutionary thing that will be similar but not the same. So what would happen if she came home from work tomorrow and our house was all decked out for Christmas? What would you feel or do? Yeah, I guess I would just go along with it, but perhaps not be that excited about it. So if the mantle had our stockings, hon. What am I supposed to do? Just take them down and then you'll be all upset. The kids, we'd all make such a big deal about you being a Scrooge. That's true, so. And then music, I think Christmas in July, you can have your one day in July to play some Christmas music, but again, it's really gotta wait till after Thanksgiving. I think that places do play Christmas music even earlier and earlier these days that you'll hear Christmas music on the radio or in the mall or in various public places before Thanksgiving. Mhm. You need to give Thanksgiving its due respect. Why? Because it's a national holiday. Man. Do you know that Canada celebrates Thanksgiving already? They've already celebrated. Well, they must be very thankful people then. They're so smart. They got their time to celebrate. Now they can focus on Christmas. They don't even really celebrate Christmas, they celebrate Boxing Day. Yeah, right. But I'm just saying that it's ridiculous that we squeeze so much into less than a month. It's a little bit more than a month, and then if you keep going, like we talked about in our Christmas side episode. Which would have been less than a year ago, I believe, because we probably talked about that in January, is that you can have the 12 days of Christmas and then you're celebrating into January and beyond, actually, which we do and that's helpful for us as a couple. Thanksgiving this year is November 27th. That is less than 30 days till Christmas. So technically, if you want to stop celebrating on Christmas. You're not even giving me a whole month to celebrate. Yeah, I think if it was up to me and I had no external pressure or cultural pressure that I would celebrate Christmas on Christmas. And then have the celebration last after Christmas. You don't really do anything Christmas related until Christmas, and then you celebrate Christmas post Christmas Day. No lights. Yeah, you put them up on Christmas, and then you have the 12 days of Christmas. Do you know that I started watching my Christmas movies last week? It does not surprise me. I did not know that as a fact, but I am not surprised. How do you feel about that? Yeah, it's fine, you can do your own Christmas routine, but I'm Probably not going to partake in any of that. Plus, I don't really even necessarily like very many Christmas movies. There's a few, like Die Hard and A Christmas Carol And -- What's the one with you -- like A Wonderful Life. Wonderful Life. Yes, you watch that every year. That's not actually the one I was thinking of that I can't place the name, uh, shoot your eye out one. Oh, -- Christmas -- Story. Christmas. Yeah, we always watch A Christmas Story. We always watch It's a Wonderful Life. I feel like it's yours and mine. Tradition. I actually enjoy the elf, that's so good. No, I was going to say the Twilight Zone marathon on New Year's Day more than I enjoy Christmas and the related movies. Oh, that makes me wanna cry. That is good too though, the Twilight marathon. No, I love Christmas. You tolerate watching one or two. I feel like I can get you to watch one or two romantic Hallmark movies with me. I was talking to someone recently and she is doing a Hallmark movie right now, so I let her know that I am the biggest Hallmark movie fan, and I will watch and critique anything you want to give me, no matter when. And so that was super exciting. I came home, I remember I told you like, I'm gonna read her thing and I'm so excited. And that was specifically Christmas themed or it's just Christmas movie. There you go. If you can get your name on the credits. I don't even care. I just wanna read the scripts. Oh, so exciting. Indeed, that's my dream. I'm not a writer, obviously, but I'll watch or read anything people wanna write Christmas themed. So what happens right now, this is the time of year, things are changing in the stores. You're getting more Christmas than Halloween or anything else. So how does that make you feel when you walk into Target? And you see the Santa Claus. Well, Halloween's not even over yet, and they're already transitioning, -- so I think that's -- essentially Halloween's over. Well, that's fine with me. I would, I would trade out Halloween for Christmas, but then they need their Thanksgiving decorations like some turkeys and stuff. That's why we should celebrate beginning of October. People by after Halloween are over and Thanksgiving doesn't get its due, right? Because of when it's located, it needs to be earlier in the year. Oh, I guess you can write a letter to President Donald Trump. Maybe if he's not busy knocking over half the White House, he can change the date of Thanksgiving. That could be the next thing he does. There you go. That'd be cool. What I would really like the government to do is just get rid of daylight savings time. That would be better than Christmas, better than Thanksgiving, better than all national holidays combined, just do that. And you could even have a national holiday like the abolition of Daylight savings time Day. I think I think that's way more important things to the government. If I was gonna ask them to do one thing. It would be something different. But it's good for you. It's a fight you're willing to fight. I just mean in terms of. Holiday and construction designations that the daily savings time is. Much more important than any demolition, reconstruction, as well as any designation of holidays, past, present, or future. Now, if there's a ballot and it says, change the date of Thanksgiving, Or make daylight savings time a national holiday, I would vote to change Thanksgiving. Earlier, because I get overshadowed by everything. But I agree, get rid of daylight savings time. It is, well, when do we fall back -- for daylight savings -- time? Beginning of November. Beginning of November, I guess that varies based on whatever the Sunday is. -- So -- what if we just change Thanksgiving to the old date of fallback daylight savings. And then you can kill two birds with one stone. OK, I'll vote for that. That ups it 3 weeks, maybe 4 weeks. So I would vote for you, for those, that's your platform. My question is, Would daylight savings time ever fall on Halloween or Thanksgiving ever fall on Halloween at that point? I don't think it could because in President Bush or somebody moved daylight savings time so that it always fell after Halloween? They, yeah, they did it uh Sunday after Halloween, so you get more daylight for trick or treating. Yes, so I guess the worst case is that you would have like Halloween night on Saturday night. 31st and then the next day, Sunday would be Thanksgiving. So you would just change Thanksgiving. It wouldn't be the Thursday. No, this is, yes, you're, you're saying we can do anything. So let's just put November Thanksgiving on. November 1st, always. No, no, no, the Sunday, the first Sunday in November, the day that it used to be daylight savings fall back because then we can give thanks that daylight savings doesn't exist anymore. OK. Why? OK, but tell me, why can't we do that? You have a fairly flexible career. A lot of your family does too, or we don't really do Thanksgiving with my family cause we're so, you know, across the country. So why could we not personally celebrate Thanksgiving the first Sunday in November. And then it's Christmas season. Well, I guess if enough people do that, then that's a possibility. -- But why can't -- we? I guess we could. Your job is flexible, right? In fact, they'd probably prefer it, right? Yeah, -- I -- suppose so. So why couldn't we change Thanksgiving? I think there's still some cultural and nationalistic unity in the Macy's Day Parade, Macy's Day Parade, you have Black Friday, you have. Certain things where all of the nation is giving thanks on the same day that is a bit of a cultural. Unifying event, OK. I don't have much argument beyond that. That's pretty much it. There's the cultural events and the national unity. That doesn't sound that convincing to why we can't decorate, put our tree up right now. Or November 2nd. So we had to have to wait till after Halloween. Is that our new rule? Is that a rule? That is not our rule. It is interesting just how much is influenced by cultural norms and expectations for events and holidays. Myself included, I'm affected by that. So you are a listener, can let us know when you start your Christmas season. And perhaps you would also like to weigh in on potentially moving Thanksgiving or abolishing daylight savings time or both and just combining them into the same day. So you can always let us know in the comments or send us a text or send us an email. And as an interesting note, I believe we're on track for October to have our most listens ever. Wow, cool in a month for us. Yes, so. Well, -- thanks -- y'all. We want to keep that going. So if you enjoyed this episode, instead of just sharing it with one person, share with two, because then we can have exponential growth. There you go. And then November will be crazy high. Perhaps so, or maybe we'll be busy celebrating Christmas. Oh, I can't wait. So from your friends at I Hate Talking, until next time, remember, it is only through talking that we begin the journey to understanding.